GRCS: some criticism by a non-owner

[pdqdl]

I have been getting more interested in the GRCS, and I know a lot of you guys swear by them. So I started to do my internet research, thinking I should be able to build my own for less.

Well, the answer is probably not. The Harken 46 winch that it is based on sells for about $1650 at various sailing equipment places, and that doesn't include any of the extra parts you get with the GRCS.

Then I start reading the specifications on that winch, and I discover that it is not supposed to be loaded with larger than a 9/16th" line. Furthermore, the manufacturer does not rate the winch component with any safe working load. Hmmm...

I found the video of some guys (Beranek included) testing to destruction the GRCS and the Hobbs device. They dropped a huge log, eventually a volvo, onto the devices. The GRCS was not as strong as the Hobbs, and they were using a 3/4" rope to do the destruction.

Our thanks to Ekka, for making this video available: http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/grcsvshobbswmv.wmv

TI have two precautionary points here, I am welcoming your comments and criticisms:

1. At one point, they exploded the GRCS winch, pulling it off the pedestal. It turns out that the Harken winch is only held together by a relatively small screw. The winch is designed to be loaded at an 8 degree angle toward the mounting base , thereby keeping it put together. If you allow the load to pull the winch out of proper alignment with the load, it pulls the capstan off the winch under a heavy load!

2. Since most folks that lower really big logs use a 3/4" rope, how many of you are using that rope with the GRCS? According to the maker of the winch, it isn't rated for that size rope, and I suspect it can't safely carry the load a 3/4' rope can deliver, either.
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If you wanted to build your own GRCS-style device with a winch rated for 3/4" rope, you'd better warm up your wallet: the Harken winches in that size run about $2500, not counting any hardware to mount it.

 

[046]

been thinking of building my own GRCS type device for awhile.

found several used boat winches available on craigslist for a fraction of new. they generally are offered in pairs. Harken 46, self tailing winches in $1200-$1500 range. have seen pairs offered on CL low as $900.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

What works, works. I've had a GRCS for over three years and have never had a single problem. I use 3/4" rope.

It has made jobs, that would otherwise have been a pita without it, a walk in the park. There have been others on here, over the years, who have complained about the cost of the unit versus its component parts break-down, but Good has taken all of the parts and put them together in an easy-to-use, extremely useful piece of equipment. For the money, it's been one of the better investments I've made in my business. I would not want to be without it.

I don't shock it with enormous loads. A good knowledge of load weights and a good dose of common sense should always come into play when rigging down log segments. Anyone can bring any piece of equipment up to and beyond its breaking point. The trick is to know what you're doing. Radical concept, right?

 

[ddhlakebound]

Interesting, and good to know.

But if a person is expecting shock loads, and only lowering big loads (no lifting), why would it be used with the winch? Wouldn't the bollard be a much better/safer choice for the application?

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Interesting, and good to know.

But if a person is expecting shock loads, and only lowering big loads (no lifting), why would it be used with the winch? Wouldn't the bollard be a much better/safer choice for the application?

Absolutely.

 

[randyg]

Good points?

About the 8 degree angle thing: Is there not a guide for the rope to run through to give that angle/keep rope at base of winch? I'm wondering if the 9/16" spec has more to do with the 'self-tailing' ability of the winch rather than the amount of force capable of larger sizes of rope?

I too am a non-owner of a GRCS, but getting closer to purchase every day. Have a couple home made bollards that I love, and use in conjunction with fiddle blocks to lift on occasion.

Think of it like this: GRCS is to bollard with fiddle blocks, as chainsaw is to axe.

 

[tomtrees58]

look at a hobbs we have 2 of them we love them ther $1600.00 tom trees

 

[treemandan]

For about 5 bills you can be the proud owner of the kind I have.I made a post about it. It works ok.

 

[pdqdl]

About the 8 degree angle thing: Is there not a guide for the rope to run through to give that angle/keep rope at base of winch? I'm wondering if the 9/16" spec has more to do with the 'self-tailing' ability of the winch rather than the amount of force capable of larger sizes of rope?

.........

Yes, but in the "test to destruction" video, those guides were bent out of line by the rope, then failure occurred.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I have not had any problem with my GRCS and I've had it for around nine years.

I always wonder how many people who complain about the cost have a big saw that they use only a few times a month?

With the Jerry B. video, they were trying to break it, applying forces that I've never had the need to use. Though i think Greg Good beefed up the fairlead that got bent. It is also recomended that a block be placed over the fairlead so that you have a proper angle coming into it. I do this as a matter of course; if the rope is not coming in at a near zero angle, it gets a fairlead pulley or carabiner over the fairlead bar.

Rope size; Ive used 3/4, though I hate anything over 9/16 when I'm climbing. I just do not need that stuff till I get to the trunk wood.

 

[Rftreeman]

I always wonder how many people who complain about the cost have a big saw that they use only a few times a month?

I ain't got but $500 in my big saw (394xp 36" bar) and use less than a few times a month and refuse to pay $2600 (not that I can't afford it) for something that I'll never use for anything other than lifting, thought about one once but was thinking what would keep it from sliding up the tree, are you going to cut notches in a tree that you are not removing.

I'd like to see what it would take to make a porta wrap fail.

 

[asthesun]

you can always just mount the porta-wrap to the skid-steer, lift as needed and then run the rope as needed

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

you can always just mount the porta-wrap to the skid-steer, lift as needed and then run the rope as needed

If you can get the skidder near the tree.

refuse to pay $2600 (not that I can't afford it) for something that I'll never use for anything other than lifting,

It is useful for mere then just lifting; that operation is just the easiest to get across without visual aid. I find it allows you to finesse the rigging operation and work with greater efficiency.

 

[asthesun]

If you can get the skidder near the tree.

get longer rope/more rope if necessary

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

get longer rope/more rope if necessary

Fair lead it around the house maybe? What if you are in the woods, and cannot cut your way in for machine access?

 

[LTREES]

What is the difference between the GRCS (2600.00) and the HOBBS (1600.00) ? They both have a hand crank? One has an option for a drill? What is the load limits? I would think you could manage 1000 to 1500 lbs. no problem. If I can get something to lift a whole lead off a house in one shot for 1600.00 I'm in. I have a lowering device, just cant lift anything up w/ it.

LT...

 

[newb]

This argument has been beaten to death. If you can't afford a GRCS thats one thing, but if you don't want to invest the money in one don't come in here trying to justify your decision by berating the tool. I've often felt if Greg wanted to sell more units all he have to do is demo it to owners for one month. You would never be without. There are many ways to work around a GRCS, port-a-wrap, fiddle block, skid steer, but through it all, theres only one GRCS. Thanks Greg!! Pete

 

[asthesun]

This argument has been beaten to death. If you can't afford a GRCS thats one thing, but if you don't want to invest the money in one don't come in here trying to justify your decision by berating the tool. I've often felt if Greg wanted to sell more units all he have to do is demo it to owners for one month. You would never be without. There are many ways to work around a GRCS, port-a-wrap, fiddle block, skid steer, but through it all, theres only one GRCS. Thanks Greg!! Pete

lets beat it to death some more. there is only one skid steer, there is only one portawrap. there are ways around everything. if you're a zillionaire who want every tool and toy ever, get the grcs. if you're like the rest od us peons who actually has to think a little before dropping 2-3k on a tool that isnt necessary, dont get it just yet. tree work got done long before someone came up with the grcs.

 

[senechal]

I've got a lot of hours on both hobbs and good, and agree with Pete's point about demoing the GRCS. It's a fine tuned machine for people that can appreciate the little nuisance details that can build up to aggravating levels -- eg. hobbs has and issue with wraps rolling over and cinching your load under heavier loads after a lift. Extreeeme PITA. It has some fairlead bugs to deal with. GRCS is one man operation with ease, with much greater precision/control and mechanical advantage. You could argue that Hobbs is one man operation I guess, if you like one hand on the lever, one on slack tend crossing over arms and switching the bar to a new socket placement with no ability to watch the rig.

GRCS is the industry's best kept secret, consider the cost a membership to the club of kicking ass.

 

[Ax-man]

The GRCS is well within the SWL of 5/8ths dia. Stable Braid rope. The winch can easily accomodate this size rope for most tree work including lowering. You can do some lifting with this size rope, pretensioning a double braid is usually about all you would need to do with the winch to lower out some big logs. 1/2 in. dia. is better suited for long big lifts because you can get more wraps on the winch than you can with 5/8ths. The more wraps on the winch the more traction you will have with no slippage. 1/2 in. rope will easily get 90 % of a tree down to the ground.

3/4 in rope is overkill for most average tree work unless your working on those big conifers in the PNW. 3/4 in rope is a pain to handle, tie knots, and is heavy If you think you need to use 3/4 in rope your either taking the butt end of some very big limbs or your blocking down some very big trunk sections. There is no need for the winch as this is simple lowering and the bollard supplied with the GRCS will easily handle these loads using 3/4 in rope.

As JP pointed out in that video they were pushing those lowering devices to the limit and they were adding slack to increase the dynamic loading on the devices. Both the Hobbs and GRCS were damaged but the ropes and knots failed more than the devices. No one in their right mind would do what they were doing to their equipment.

Get your hands on the video that actually shows how to use the GRCS. It clearly demonstates why the GRCS is more popular than the Hobbs.

Larry