Group Selection

[2dogs]

One of our NTMPs is being held up by Cal Fire because they insist the entire plan must be worded so that Group Selection is to be the only criteria to be used that will allow a harvest to take place. I've yet to see the size of the groups but we really need to be able to select cut AND clearcut if for no other reason than to create (or use old existing) skid trails. I feel this one person is holding up our NTMP.

Has anyone else run into this issue. I'm asking because I have experienced the effects of one person "on a mission" who refuses listen to our needs and therefore just shuts down the harvest.

 

[northmanlogging]

Office politics are at play, but I would go above them.

Get sort of the same BS when trying to do county level permits, one moron on a mission derails an entire project, so just ask for someone else to take over.

If that don't work have a sit down with the people that control their employment and discuss options

Its pulling a total Karen, but I can't ****ing stand when some tie wearing ****stick holds things up for some personal crusade they don't actually know the implications of.

Granted, at the DNR level things are generally pretty chill, if there is an issue its worked out politely, just the county monkeys around here have accountability issues, in the "tooscaredtosignoffbecausetheymightgetsued"

 

[Gologit]

One of our NTMPs is being held up by Cal Fire because they insist the entire plan must be worded so that Group Selection is to be the only criteria to be used that will allow a harvest to take place. I've yet to see the size of the groups but we really need to be able to select cut AND clearcut if for no other reason than to create (or use old existing) skid trails. I feel this one person is holding up our NTMP.

Has anyone else run into this issue. I'm asking because I have experienced the effects of one person "on a mission" who refuses listen to our needs and therefore just shuts down the harvest.

I don't have any advice for you. I wish I did. One thing, if it looks like they're going to win anyway don't let them beat you without them knowing they've damn well been in a fight. Put a little hair on the walls.

 

[catbuster]

In the past, I’ve done my permits & contracts to the letter then once the job was going on I’d either:

A-Justify a reason for change. This is preferable. It can also be very profitable for an opportunistic and predatory contractor.

or

B-Do it how I wanted anyway. This is not ideal, and sometimes leads to penalties and/or a lawsuit.

If you do the permitting the way the agency in charge wanted it done from the start, it’s nigh impossible for the agency to not grant you some sort of deviation once you’ve tried to do it their “proper” way. It may take some time to grant the deviation and it may take some hard lobbying on your part, but it’s been my experience that it works well, even in Yankeedom. Unless they’re completely obstinate, or completely Byzantine in which the deviation dies somewhere in the bureaucracy.

 

[slowp]

Yes. It took NINE MONTHS to get an OK to change a logging system from yarder to skidder. The area was flat (for Warshington) and chock full of old skid roads. I tried to never tell a lie, but when I last went in to see what the holdup was, and the head 'ologist wanted to know if I had walked over 100% of the ground I just popped out with a yes. I'd walked a great deal of it. The head honchette would not ever make a decision, but always assigned that to an underling which seemed pretty chicken excrementish to me.

I have worked with group selection. You absolutely have to see to it that the others understand about operations trees--trees that must be cut for skid trails, landings and safety. For some reason, that is a very difficult concept for folks who aren't interested at all in harvesting timber and only do the work because there isn't enough funding for their "real" job. Can't recall how many times I heard that. Pictures of equipment might help along with explaining safety rules.

I wouldn't even call it selective, I'd call it Operation Trees. Drag those folks out and show them if at all possible. It's a hard concept for many.

And they wonder why sale administrators look grumpy a lot of the time...

Can you define your acronym please? I have no idea what an NTwhatever is.

 

[slowp]

Sometimes you can lure "them" out to the woods with donuts. Not donettos, but real bakery made donuts. Cookies work with loggers, donuts work with 'ologists and agency people, unless they are vegan health nut people and then you are screwed. You can't please vegan, vegematic healthy eating people. They are fighting the craving for grease.

 

[Huntaholic]

Im SO GLAD I don't have to deal with that b.ulls.hit. 100% of my timber work is on private land and in TN the forestry dept pretty much keeps their nose out of it. Permits, bids, skid trail marking, landing sites, etc.... ALL of that is a non-issue. Just don't drag logs down running streams, don't leave any tops in a waterway, youre fine around here. Honestly, at my age, if they started all that crap here I would retire and just cut my own timber from here on out. Now granted, my crew would have to find other employment, but they are young enough to start over or do it the .gov way.

 

[northmanlogging]

Sometimes you can lure "them" out to the woods with donuts. Not donettos, but real bakery made donuts. Cookies work with loggers, donuts work with 'ologists and agency people, unless they are vegan health nut people and then you are screwed. You can't please vegan, vegematic healthy eating people. They are fighting the craving for grease.

offer the vegans a hot dog, not even like a good one, just run of the renderer $.99 a pack cold meat cycle... if they roll their eye you got em, if they give you a lecture yer screwed anyway.

Bismark doughnuts for the win, or chocolate chip kookies... if anyones asking...

 

[slowp]

offer the vegans a hot dog, not even like a good one, just run of the renderer $.99 a pack cold meat cycle... if they roll their eye you got em, if they give you a lecture yer screwed anyway.

Bismark doughnuts for the win, or chocolate chip kookies... if anyones asking...

I learned the "bring treats" trick from an Enviromental Analysis head person. She upped her meeting attendance quite a bit when she started bringing donuts to her meetings.

There are vegematic hot dogs that are even sold in Walmart. They kind of taste like the real thing, sort of, maybe.

 

[2dogs]

Between Patty and Northbear my head is spinning! On the good side I learned me up two new words, "honchette" and "excrementish". Those words are probably banned in Taxifornia but I can't wait to use them our very tender ologists.

NTPM stands for Non-industrial Timber Management Plan. It is a $60,000 document for landowners who harvest a small amount of trees every year but only as a side NOT as the main source of income, and is intended for the life of the property. A Timber Management Plan, TMP, is when the property is primarily for harvesting. A TMP is much cheaper but only lasts for one harvest. These documents are approved by the Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, Cal Fire.

Our property in Santa Cruz county is 540 acres (for now) but County rules state a landowner must posses greater than 40 acres to harvest.

More to follow.

What the heck is a Bismark donut? Is it stell?

 

[slowp]

You can use these pictures if you want. I don't believe in overly wide skid trails or skyline corridors.

 

[slowp]

We had these things called skips and gaps. A skip was a clump of trees left, a gap was supposed to be a clump (group) of trees cut. There were always more skips than gaps and the gaps always seemed to have leave trees left in them so weren't really gaps. This was where it had to be explained that the skyline could not weave around the skips and the corridor would have to go through some of the skips. A compromise was made that the trees cut for the corridor in the skips had to be left on the ground. That was the only way the wildlife guy would allow and he had all the power. Power is what it is sometimes all about. Sigh.

 

[northmanlogging]

Between Patty and Northbear my head is spinning! On the good side I learned me up two new words, "honchette" and "excrementish". Those words are probably banned in Taxifornia but I can't wait to use them our very tender ologists.

NTPM stands for Non-industrial Timber Management Plan. It is a $60,000 document for landowners who harvest a small amount of trees every year but only as a side NOT as the main source of income, and is intended for the life of the property. A Timber Management Plan, TMP, is when the property is primarily for harvesting. A TMP is much cheaper but only lasts for one harvest. These documents are approved by the Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, Cal Fire.

Our property in Santa Cruz county is 540 acres (for now) but County rules state a landowner must posses greater than 40 acres to harvest.

More to follow.

What the heck is a Bismark donut? Is it stell?

On the lEast coast I think they call them boston cream

 

[catbuster]

On the lEast coast I think they call them boston cream

View attachment 972540

As a former (short time) Boston resident I can confirm.

 

[slowp]

I think we just called them filled donuts.

I wouldn't take filled donuts on a field trip unless I brought along a container of baby wipes. They are a stickier, gooier donut, if fresh.

 

[northmanlogging]

I think we just called them filled donuts.

I wouldn't take filled donuts on a field trip unless I brought along a container of baby wipes. They are a stickier, gooier donut, if fresh.

part of the fun though innit? get a bunch of ologists filthy, sweaty, and covered in mud... otherwise are the loggers really doing their jobs?

 

[slowp]

part of the fun though innit? get a bunch of ologists filthy, sweaty, and covered in mud... otherwise are the loggers really doing their jobs?

I've been on many a "dog and pony" show. I would show up in work gear because these things would usually start late in the morning and I could get some actual work done before.. The 'ologists did not. Dog and Pony shows seldom get off the road or landing. In fact, I can think of none that did. One shows up, waits because they'll be late, listens to their concerns, offers to walk down with them and show them, offer is declined, they have to return to the office or travel home. Many show no interest at all while out there. I tried to not go to these affairs. If the weather was bad, the meetings were short or didn't happen at all.

I did like going out with the timber higher ups to look at stuff. We did get off roads and go down in units but the outcome was usually the same. It was, "This unit is barely touched. A lot more trees should have been cut." That was in thinnings and they were cut as heavy as the 'ologist in charge would allow.
One big shot and I had worked together when we were both just out of school and hired on permanently. He walked up, grinned and said looks like you have a brand new work truck. (I did) he then ran his calks down and across the step into the cab metal part scratching it nicely. It would get that way eventually so it was humorous. Oh well, I digress. Those guys usually brought bakery donuts to us because they knew we were a bakery deprived area.