Help!! Logger wants to cut down my trees!!

[bitzer]

Oak needs a lot of sunlight to regenerate. Like big open holes in the canopy. Get a DNR forester or the like in there and have them tell you what you should do with your woods. There could easily be $5000 in timber on ten acres. It depends on how much you take (volume/acre) and the quality of the trees. Typically in a mature oak stand up here we do a shelter wood cut. That means probably 60-80% of the mature timbers comes off. Like I said oak needs a lot of sunlight to grow back well. If the time is right for the woods to be logged it is good for it as long as its done right. I've also seen a lot of people hang onto their trees for too long because they don't want to see them go. Hardwood timber hits a peak and then starts to drop off as far as quality goes. If your timber is mature its time to cut.

 

[Time's Standing Stihl]

Beautiful looking timber, just a little thinning you could make that a savannah pretty easy. If i only had just 10 acres, there is no way i would sell those white oaks.

 

[Collegegirl007]

Thanks again to everyone!! Amazing information and tips - thank you so much!! You all are really opening my eyes to much more than I ever realized went into it.
I heard back from my Forester who works for my county. He says the deal may work out, but it sounds fishy to him and is not how he likes to do business. He says we may never actually see payment. Looking back, the logger did say he DID NOT write the check. The check comes from whoever he sells the timber to and then we get half. Does that sound right to you all?

Time Standing Stihl - may I ask why you say if you had 10 acres, you'd never sell white oak?

Thanks again everyone!

 

[hanniedog]

As most have said get a forestor in to see what should be harvested. You might want to think about having a company that uses horses to skid the logs. Much lower impact on the woods.

 

[madhatte]

One thing you want to look for in a forester is a local expert. I can give you an estimate of the volume and value of a Douglas-fir here in the Pacific Northwest, but I know nothing about midwest hardwoods. Another consideration (I hope I am not missing anybody's post above me saying the same thing) is cost to get the logs to market -- if fuel and equipment and personnel costs are close to or greater than the value of the log, it won't be a profitable log to haul. Sometimes a sale goes down very close to that margin and nobody makes any money. How far is it to the mill? What equipment will be used? What condition is it in? How many people on the job? If the logger has too many mouths to feed or a piece of equipment is a big debt or is always breaking down, there will be very little left over at the end for you, split 50-50. Lump-sum sales are a bigger risk for the logger but much smaller for the landowner.

 

[Collegegirl007]

That's a really great point, madhatte. Thank you for bringing that up, something else to think about and consider!!

 

[bitzer]

I would get that county forester to come out and look at the timber. I wouldn't proceed any further until that was done. Also I would find some local sawmills and get them to bid on it also. This will drive up the price and accountability. The slackers and hacks will back off and you should be able to get nearly top dollar for your timber. This process takes time and its well worth it. Like was said before. You have what they want. Typically a lump sum payment before anything is cut will be the best bang for your buck when you get mills to compete on it.

 

[stltreedr]

Collegegirl- I don't know which part of the Show Me state you're in... If you are at all close to St. Louis or surrounding few counties I have a guy for you.

Regardless of that, you can contact the Missouri Department of Conservation- They should be able to send a state forester to your site and give you recommendations, as well as reputable contractors.

That being said- I would think very long and hard about logging a site as smalll as yours, especiiallly if it is your home site. You aren't going to live long enough to grow a new generation of mature trees. You aren't talking about life changing money here, you can barely buy a junk car for 25 hundo.

If you're interested in getting the name of a reputable consulting forester, PM me.

 

[treeslayer2003]

Thanks again to everyone!! Amazing information and tips - thank you so much!! You all are really opening my eyes to much more than I ever realized went into it.
I heard back from my Forester who works for my county. He says the deal may work out, but it sounds fishy to him and is not how he likes to do business. He says we may never actually see payment. Looking back, the logger did say he DID NOT write the check. The check comes from whoever he sells the timber to and then we get half. Does that sound right to you all?

Time Standing Stihl - may I ask why you say if you had 10 acres, you'd never sell white oak?

Thanks again everyone!

50/50 split is fine, I do it often but the folks I do that with know my reputation well. if this guy can't provide jobs he has done in the area then i'd be skeptical. county forester will help you and should mark trees that should go so you will know what is going.
10 or 100 acres, makes no difference all timber should be managed. none live forever and any one who thinks trees never die are fooling themselves.

 

[Woody912]

Collegegirl- I don't know which part of the Show Me state you're in... If you are at all close to St. Louis or surrounding few counties I have a guy for you.

Regardless of that, you can contact the Missouri Department of Conservation- They should be able to send a state forester to your site and give you recommendations, as well as reputable contractors.

That being said- I would think very long and hard about logging a site as smalll as yours, especiiallly if it is your home site. You aren't going to live long enough to grow a new generation of mature trees. You aren't talking about life changing money here, you can barely buy a junk car for 25 hundo.

If you're interested in getting the name of a reputable consulting forester, PM me.

agree 100% unless you really need the money. Right now you have a park, if you thin it too much you will end up with a briar patch and your remaining white oaks will respond to the increased sunlight by throwing side shoots which will degrade their value.

 

[northmanlogging]

to the OP, I only cut on a percentage split and the mill writes the checks. Different areas work differently though some folks only buy the timber, some will put some money down and then split it after a certain amount is made, many ways to clear cut a forest.

And please contact a Forester, I can bore you to death with talk of western hemlock, doug fir, alder, western red ceder, and such, but know next to nothing about oak, doesn't even grow around here... and likewise the timber in northern misery could be diffent then the south etc.

 

[discounthunter]

you said this is your parents property. is the logger talking to you or them. are you just trying to help your parents not get swindled.

 

[stihl sawing]

Just to give you an idea on it's worth, the guy across the street from me sold 20 acres of huge oaks and Gum trees. they did not clearcut it. they left a lot of big trees. He got 15,000 dollars for hisself. Now these were big oaks.

 

[bitzer]

I just cut a job on 10 acres. It was big timber. Red and white oak. I took 50,000 bf out of there. That should equate to around 12-15,000 dollars for the landowner.

 

[crazytimber]

As a small logging company here in ohio I agree get a forester most loggers are honest how ever theres a bad one in every lot. One thing to not mentioned and is a previalent problem here in ohio is property lines not properly marked make sure you have a plot map were your logger and yourself can find and mark your lines ( most loggers can do this ) I leave a buffer zone of uncut trees usually 10 to 30 feet from the line this keeps your neighbors happy most the time. Also a side note If im out driving around Ive been know to knock on doors if I come across nice timber. Mead paper is a major force here in southern ohio so it can be slim picking

 

[Woody912]

I just cut a job on 10 acres. It was big timber. Red and white oak. I took 50,000 bf out of there. That should equate to around 12-15,000 dollars for the landowner.

Kind of curious about this. The Indiana Hardwood stumpage report would seem to show that the price paid for #1 oak might be around $800/m bf, always assumed this was the price to landowner

 

[Swamp Yankee]

As a small logging company here in ohio I agree get a forester most loggers are honest how ever theres a bad one in every lot. One thing to not mentioned and is a previalent problem here in ohio is property lines not properly marked make sure you have a plot map were your logger and yourself can find and mark your lines ( most loggers can do this ) I leave a buffer zone of uncut trees usually 10 to 30 feet from the line this keeps your neighbors happy most the time. Also a side note If im out driving around Ive been know to knock on doors if I come across nice timber. Mead paper is a major force here in southern ohio so it can be slim picking

This is excellent advice

Along with everything else that has been previously mentioned, obviously.

Here in my area I get involved helping to harvest more lots in the 10 to 30 acre size range than in the 100 plus. It's just the nature of the beast as many large tracts of land have been subdivided and sold off. The species and grade of the wood to be harvested is what you'll receive a check for and as mentioned that's where having a Forester watching your interests reaps huge benefits.

Going back to crazytimber's point, be sure your parents' property was properly surveyed, and the pins, markers, flags etc are all still in place. Over the past years some of the guys I've worked for have found themselves shut down, one due to a court injunction, because they wound up in the middle of border disputes between abutting property owners that pretty much hated each other. May not be the situation here, but the point of knowing and having marked boundaries is critical to protecting all, landowners and harvesters.

Oh, and the injunction situation, it was predicated on damage to wetlands, potential Indian burial grounds, and incorrect boundaries from a 75 year old survey. It did not however, have anything to do with the fact the landowner's abutting property owner had a small pot farm growing on the back remote corner his property that he did not want discovered.

Take Care

 

[bitzer]

Kind of curious about this. The Indiana Hardwood stumpage report would seem to show that the price paid for #1 oak might be around $800/m bf, always assumed this was the price to landowner

That is probably price delivered to the mill. At least that is close to the price delivered around here. Logging and trucking costs come off of the top of that cost. Typically loggers get $100- $120 per thousand board feet if they sub contract cutting/skidding for a mill up here. Trucking is also pretty close to that rate, mileage depending. If the logger is buying the standing timber and not a mill the logger will make considerably more. I would guess the landowner gets roughly the same if a mill or a logger buys the standing timber.

 

[Woody912]

That is probably price delivered to the mill. At least that is close to the price delivered around here. Logging and trucking costs come off of the top of that cost. Typically loggers get $100- $120 per thousand board feet if they sub contract cutting/skidding for a mill up here. Trucking is also pretty close to that rate, mileage depending. If the logger is buying the standing timber and not a mill the logger will make considerably more. I would guess the landowner gets roughly the same if a mill or a logger buys the standing timber.

yea, after re-reading everything I think you're right. However veneer grade prime seems to go as high as $3/bf. If I was selling 10 acres of good oak I would want their tally sheet and then do my own cruise and measuring before I sold anything. I realize I'm not a pro but I don't want to bend over and grab my ankles w/o giving it my best effort! Wonder if the OP realized she's gonna have a bunch of tops on the ground after they pull out?

 

[bitzer]

yea, after re-reading everything I think you're right. However veneer grade prime seems to go as high as $3/bf. If I was selling 10 acres of good oak I would want their tally sheet and then do my own cruise and measuring before I sold anything. I realize I'm not a pro but I don't want to bend over and grab my ankles w/o giving it my best effort! Wonder if the OP realized she's gonna have a bunch of tops on the ground after they pull out?

Even if they pulped out the tops there will still be a lot of wood left in the woods. That's not a bad thing though. Especially for oak re-gen. The tops give small trees a chance to grow because they are less accessible to animal browsing. If you have several parties competing for the sale the numbers will get as close as possible to accurate.