Help with cutting and felling techniques

[bnmc98]

Hi, new to the forum here.
I was wondering if there are any resources for different cutting techniques to get the trees where you want them. any veterans that want to share wisdom as well.

I am a timber faller but have not been doing it that long and my knowledge of cuts is limited. I am sick of pushing and wedging if you know what I mean.

Any help would be great.
thanks Brian.

 

[northmanlogging]

The falling pics thread is a good start, or just hang around on here you'll pick something up everyday.

as far as wedging and pushing, change your lay, if possible. fall em in the direction of the most common lean, unless you have to fall in a specific direction for yarding or skidding, if that's the case quit winning and get a bigger ax.

And by pushing you mean leaning on the damn thing until it falls right? cause sending another tree into it is dangerous as Hel, pushing multiples is just stupid for a newbie (its just stupid anyways...IMO)

And last but not least, wedging is a fact of life for west coast logging (and yes I'm including Montana in that, but only just). Get used to it, and get good at it.

 

[Spotted Owl]

Are you for real?

The last thing I read of yours you were telling someone how to do something. Such as 60 to 90 degrees from the lean and push it over if it was going to slow. Now your here looking for basics? There was some good stuff in that thread that you tossed off to the side with thing thing that you put up.

I'll quote you here:

"I would fall it (if able to) 60-90 degrees to the side. 40% face cut and then walk your back cut in, when you get to the hinge, if it doesn't go over slowly, give it a push, the tree is not that big and this way you don't have to worry about it splitting and chairing on you.
just my opinion, and that is all it is. Good luck."

The tree is not that big and you don;t have to worry about splitting or chairing? I'll tell on myself a bit here. I just got a 12" Alder to chair out on me. Yup scared the crap out of me cause I wasn't expecting it. Size don't mean anything when it comes to a chair. Lean means a GREAT deal. Gotta be ready for a chair anytime, especially with a leaner. Hardwoods have all kinds of pent up energy in them, from my dealings with'em. That tree far as I saw it was a chair waiting to happen, specially the way you called it. If a guy is pushing on a tree, where is he standing? What's gonna happen to him if it does chair? Small don't matter, you gotta think about every thing you cut. A 6"er will screw you up of you turn your back on it and it does something unexpected.

At least you're asking. That's good. Hopefully it will keep you alive long enough to get old. I would suggest this right off, first and foremost. If you are already a faller, you don't work alone very much being green I would hope. Find an old faller and watch him for a while and ask him everything he can stand to hear.

Reread that thread that I quoted you from earlier, good stuff there, read tricky tree, The picture one, the felling direction question. There tons of good stuff to be had here. Do some looking. If you come upon specific questions ask. Those are much easier to answer than what you have put before the masses, with your general lay it all on me thing here.

If you're in wood small enough to push over by hand, and you have to push them by hand, you are doing something wrong. Even if it's just cutting a corner to save time.

Wedging is something you're gonna have to get used too. Ever see a cutters belt that had no wedges? I never have, unless he all of them buried on the back. Wait until you get into having to use jacks, you don't like wedges you're gonna hate jacks.

The only thing that really teaches is time. Eyes and ears open, mouth shut. Do as you're told by your teacher not as he does. If you have one he should have the time to know things you are years from knowing. If you don't, slow down take, your time, pay attention and be ready.



Owl

 

[bnmc98]

Are you for real?

The last thing I read of yours you were telling someone how to do something. Such as 60 to 90 degrees from the lean and push it over if it was going to slow. Now your here looking for basics? There was some good stuff in that thread that you tossed off to the side with thing thing that you put up.

I'll quote you here:

"I would fall it (if able to) 60-90 degrees to the side. 40% face cut and then walk your back cut in, when you get to the hinge, if it doesn't go over slowly, give it a push, the tree is not that big and this way you don't have to worry about it splitting and chairing on you.
just my opinion, and that is all it is. Good luck."

Just because I posted this thread does not mean I dont know the basics, but I can see how you might read that. Maybe I should have been more clear. I am looking for other cutting techniques that are more advanced than the basics.

I have cut hundreds of trees like that one you are quoting me on, so I do have some knowledge in that area, but I do understand how you might think that I do not without knowing me. I too have had chairs and they have scared the crap out of me, that is why I posted what I posted, take it for what it is worth.

I am trying to figure out how not to have to wedge and push trees that are leaning in different ways than I need to lay them for skidding. and I am not talking about whole swaths of trees that are leaning a certain way.

Not trying to be rude, just trying to be more clear.

 

[Gologit]

Just because I posted this thread does not mean I dont know the basics, but I can see how you might read that. Maybe I should have been more clear. I am looking for other cutting techniques that are more advanced than the basics.

I have cut hundreds of trees like that one you are quoting me on, so I do have some knowledge in that area, but I do understand how you might think that I do not without knowing me. I too have had chairs and they have scared the crap out of me, that is why I posted what I posted, take it for what it is worth.

I am trying to figure out how not to have to wedge and push trees that are leaning in different ways than I need to lay them for skidding. and I am not talking about whole swaths of trees that are leaning a certain way.

Not trying to be rude, just trying to be more clear.

What do you have against using wedges? Sure, it's low tech but they work.

You can learn a lot about fancy cuts here. There are several cuts that can swing a tree against a lean or help you keep everything in lead. The problem with the fancy cuts is that, as you know, every tree is different. What works on one might not work on another.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking "if I do this, the tree will do that." It might and it might not.

Learn to use wedges.

 

[forestryworks]

Real fallers (and those who aspire to be so) carry 2-3 wedges on their person.

A few years ago, I was falling hazard trees in a state park. I had just finished a tree that needed a bit of wedging to coax it over and away from the trail. I waved over a handful of hikers, giving them the "all clear" to pass through.

One guy stopped by and asked, "What are them red and white things?" I responded they are wedges. "Wedges?!" He barely gets the word out, laughing only with himself. "I don't use wedges, just put 'um where they lean." Tempted to tell him any nincompoop can "fall" a tree where it leans and leave a jackstrawed mess, I responded instead with, "Yeah? That's cause you don't do directional falling. I do." And with that, he shut up and left, not a sound save his footfalls.

So yes, wedges work. Learn to use them if you want to be a real timber faller. Wedging is a fact of life in the woods.

 

[roberte]

Otjt

 

[treeslayer2003]

I have not wrecked a saw since I started using wedges, I allways carry them now even if you don't need it on a tree its in the back pocket in case sumthing goes wrong at the least it can save your saw at best your life..... and it makes the skidders job easier :biggrin:

 

[137cc]

Wedges work, this is a fact. But more than a few fellers that taught me early on rarely use them. They would usually cary a couple of wedges. But the wedges would stay in the back pocket or pouch most of the day. Understanding the actual lean of the tree is more important. Gravity is a law, not an opinion. The majority of trees out there can be put into their lay without wedges. If a tree won't go one way without wedges, then you can usually take it the opposite direction without them.

If your sick of pushing and wedging it sounds to me like you aren't properly determining the actual lean of the tree. Take more time assessing which way the tree leans first before you start cutting. Pounding wedges all day will wear out the best of us. Don't get me wrong, throwing in a wedge for insurance is a good thing. I like to just stick in a wedge without tapping it, I call it a feeler wedge. It the wedge starts to drop the everything is good. If it straightens up then I know it time to start pounding.

Judging the actual lean of a tree can be difficult, especially when your not on flat ground. You can make a quick and easy plumb bob with some string and washers, or you can use your falling axe if it has a straight handle.

 

[HuskStihl]

This thread seems to have lots of experienced fallers and now one noob. Question about the leaning tree owl referenced. For whatever reason, my property has lots of trees like that. Mostly live oaks, but sycamore, cedar and pecan as well. The trees I cut have typically died in the past year and are pretty solid. I don't mill, so don't care about saving stem length. With that said, with a heavy leaning hardwood I usually make a deep 50-60% open face cut placed about chest height. Quick back cut starting about 4" above the face and sloping down to leave about 2" of holding wood height. I actually can bore without too much excitement (chain brake activation), but don't do it much. What are the pitfalls/dangers of falling leaners this way?
Thanks, and again, no need to be gentle. historically only women can make me cry

 

[HuskStihl]

I just noticed I am an "ArboristSite MVP"! L. O. ####ing L! Bob, seriously, can you make mine say "Noob MVP"? That would genuinely please me, and appropriately warn my threadmates!

 

[treeslayer2003]

I just noticed I am an "ArboristSite MVP"! L. O. ####ing L! Bob, seriously, can you make mine say "Noob MVP"? That would genuinely please me, and appropriately warn my threadmates!

yea i'm suddenly a senieor member, dont' know how, guess I talk to much if your cuts been working you ain't doing to bad, I normally make a deeper face in hard wood than is recommended.
on the heavy leaners greatest danger is chair or slab, imo boreing cut is best on these and you get better at it the more you do it. maybe practice on some not so heavy leaners remember cutting leaners is not about controlling direction but getting tree on ground safely so do this on trees that you know were they will fall. I never leave much hinge on hard wood, check two chains falling pics out

 

[HuskStihl]

yea i'm suddenly a senieor member, dont' know how, guess I talk to much if your cuts been working you ain't doing to bad, I normally make a deeper face in hard wood than is recommended.
on the heavy leaners greatest danger is chair or slab, imo boreing cut is best on these and you get better at it the more you do it. maybe practice on some not so heavy leaners remember cutting leaners is not about controlling direction but getting tree on ground safely so do this on trees that you know were they will fall. I never leave much hinge on hard wood, check two chains falling pics out

Thanks TS. If my face is thru the majority of the heartwood, I don't see it chairing or slabbing. Ive prolly dropped 10 heavy leaners in the past 2 years (or what trampy does in a slow morning), and none fell early and pinched, and none chaired. I'm not married to this, and if people have had near death experiences from what I am describing, I'd love to know about it

 

[treeslayer2003]

Thanks TS. If my face is thru the majority of the heartwood, I don't see it chairing or slabbing. Ive prolly dropped 10 heavy leaners in the past 2 years (or what trampy does in a slow morning), and none fell early and pinched, and none chaired. I'm not married to this, and if people have had near death experiences from what I am describing, I'd love to know about it

like I said if what your doing been working you prolly got a pretty good handle on it. the reason I think we all talk about the danger of slabing or chair so much is because it is so dangerous, I know I had a couple close calls like that vid in my early years. when you expieriance that you realize how lucky you just were. so better to talk about it than to not and wish we had. we don't want any one to get hurt that's all. but there is no substitute for expieriance and you only get that by doin it :msp_smile: sounds like your working on it.

 

[treeslayer2003]

also trees are different all over and we are all over the country. so a big conifer out west prolly don't behave the same as a white oak here as a hickory there. we can only give suggestions on our expieriances

 

[HuskStihl]

like I said if what your doing been working you prolly got a pretty good handle on it. the reason I think we all talk about the danger of slabing or chair so much is because it is so dangerous, I know I had a couple close calls like that vid in my early years. when you expieriance that you realize how lucky you just were. so better to talk about it than to not and wish we had. we don't want any one to get hurt that's all. but there is no substitute for expieriance and you only get that by doin it :msp_smile: sounds like your working on it.

Thanks again, TS. I know the way to avoid barber chair is to cut the holding wood in the center. Instead of making my face 30% and boring thru, or behind the face, I just make my face steeper an deeper. Ive done it prolly 10 times without problems, but I'm sure the boys who drop 10 of these a day will have a different opinion

 

[dooby]

"help"

Hi, new to the forum here.
I was wondering if there are any resources for different cutting techniques to get the trees where you want them. any veterans that want to share wisdom as well.

I am a timber faller but have not been doing it that long and my knowledge of cuts is limited. I am sick of pushing and wedging if you know what I mean.

Any help would be great.
thanks Brian.

Brian -boy did this get ya chewed up a little bit, or what? there is a great book available called 'professional timber falling' by Douglas Dent. It is available through Bailey's. It is a very useful publication. We are from the same neck of the woods,who are you cutting for? Used to log out of bozo a few yrs. back. Matt's saw shop in Belgrade is a better than avg. shop. And Millers small engine's in bozo ain't bad either. what are ya runnin' for a saw? Are there any Yarder Loggers left down there? Never get tired of wedges cause a tree -jack is alot heavier and a casket weighs even more !!!! good luck and be safe:chainsawguy:

 

[lfnh]

This thread seems to have lots of experienced fallers and now one noob. Question about the leaning tree owl referenced. For whatever reason, my property has lots of trees like that. Mostly live oaks, but sycamore, cedar and pecan as well. The trees I cut have typically died in the past year and are pretty solid. I don't mill, so don't care about saving stem length. With that said, with a heavy leaning hardwood I usually make a deep 50-60% open face cut placed about chest height. Quick back cut starting about 4" above the face and sloping down to leave about 2" of holding wood height. I actually can bore without too much excitement (chain brake activation), but don't do it much. What are the pitfalls/dangers of falling leaners this way?
Thanks, and again, no need to be gentle. historically only women can make me cry

personally lower face cut is easier to gun and more control over saw rather than backcut level with your throat. gunning a convenrional or humboldt simpler than open face, but i think GOL teaches open face/boring. to each there own.
watch out for that crotch shot on push back. thumbs too. always the thumbs.

what does sloping 4 down to 2" buy ?
nothing good, imo.

 

[luckydozenfarm]

I scamper up the tree and hook a nice sized cable to it and pull it down with a come-a-long out of reach of the fall. Cut...pull...cut...pull.....and if I have to be extra careful, I hook another safety chain to the exact opposite way I DONT want it to go. I have yet to drop a tree anywhere I didn't want to with this method. If there isn't any trees to anchor on I usually use an additional length of cable and the tractor or mobile home earth anchors. Maybe that's the amateur method I guess..sure is easier than wedges which aren't always foolproof for us semi-pros.

 

[bustedup]

just be careful pulling sticks as they can bust out quick .......rig em high and open the face to give ya self a better chance.


Wedges ain't the answer to everything .....they another tool in the bag


No matter what ya doing a proper face cut (squared and level) and a proper back cut (level) will get ya thru most situations.


The simpler ya keep it the easier it is. Finesse cuts are great but have inherent dangers. Even fallers will tell ya they don't always work out.