Hinge Pocket Pressure Rig

[murphy4trees]

finally

I discoverred this technique many years ago by accident, but never understood what happenned.... And finally after reading all Spidy's instructions (over and over again) I had occasion to use the pocket pressure rig two days ago, and it worked... BEAUTIFULLY!!!!!

I had a medium maple limb to remove for clearance from the roof (forgive me MM)... Set the rope as close to the balance point as I could easily reach, had three men pull on the lowering line for lift, and cut the tapered hinge.. then just as the hinge looked like it was starting to twist and the limb rolling toward the roof, I reached out, grabbed the lowering line between the limb and overhead anchor crotch and pulled hard away from the roof....

the notch which had begun to twist, straightenned right out and the limb swung well clear of the roof without dropping an inch and would have kept moving like that if hadn't told them to slowly let it down... Then it just moved so slow and easy down on an angle until it came to rest still attached at the hinge.... VERY SWEET!..

Without that rig, it would have ben a hastle to handle, without putting a man on the roof.

thanks Spidy....

I wonder how it will work and heavier limbs... I Am thinking that might work well with a pull line set through an adjasent branch... and using the GRCS to get the lowering line pre-tightenned will be very cool, when ever I get one..

 

[murphy4trees]

I AM surprised that no one has replied here...

This is a sweet little trick to add to your repretaoire of rigging options... Really sweet...

 

[ORclimber]

It's pretty cool to spin a big limb 180 degrees, and calling it before you do is icing on the cake. What seperates the ideas in this thread from saying simply swing the limb, is that KC focusses more on the forces involved. The tight rope forcing the limb back into the trunk keeps the limb attached with less hinge. A little rectangle in the top 1/3 of the branch is all it takes. It's a great technique and fun to use. Saves a lot of energy too, swinging a whole limb over an obstacle instead of piecing it out.

 

[murphy4trees]

Then of course there is the lacing of the line through the limb being removed to torque against the twist that occurs before hinge failure, and the concept of tying the limb just inside the balance point.

I wonder if the real reason that there is such little response to this thread is that there are only three people on this site that have ever seen it work.. And it's flying over everybody else's head...

 

[murphy4trees]

No pain.. no gain... if his mind worked like everybody elses he wouldn't have what it takes to reach inside these things and understand them as he does.. It's not easy... why should it be?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

This is one of the few times I disagree with Brian. Spyder does have good thoughts, breaking the code is challenging, but worth it.

 

[a_lopa]

i understand your point,but i think its completly wrong,when you need to butt tie or swing a limb side ways IMO its much easier and safer to not cut a notch let the last peice of holding wood determine the swing.even saying this its very rare that i need more than 1 work rope in the tree,if im using 2 to balance and lower a limb i still do it the same way,but have fun working all this out

 

[a_lopa]

(Me, hollering to the groundman): "Hey! Pull the rope tight until this limb swings around, then let it drop away from me!"

(Groundman): "OK!"

And that's about as complicated as it needs to be. [/B][/QUOTE]

yep me 2.do you put a notch in these rocky?even doing limbs that are right over roofs hanging low ill tie off the end of limb and run second line for the butt end through another crutch for deflection,get em to hold the line and cut tilll it swings and tears away.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

(Me, hollering to the groundman): "Hey! Pull the rope tight until this limb swings around, then let it drop away from me!"

(Groundman): "OK!"

Crash!

(Me, hollering at the groundman again): "Hey, pick that gutter up off the air conditioner and pull the limb out of the living room!"

 

[kowens]

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
But Spydey likes speaking in enigmas. He doesn't want us to know what he's saying. If he did, he would write so we could understand. Communication is not his goal.

i agree rocky he looses me after the first sentence

 

[kowens]

Originally posted by TreeCo
Hey Murph,

Give us a break.

If you are going to be teaching rigging you will learn the hard way that just because people are silent it does not mean they don't understand the concept.

From the photo you sent in and Spidys response it looks like maybe it flew over your head. That's kind of sad because this is a basic technique. Just add a butt tie to protect the climber and a tag line and now you're rigging!

Dan

 

[kowens]

hey murph i think the artcle you wrote is going to your head

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i'm sorry, i don't think that 1 line reply deserves the price of even electronic ink.

i really don't think we all are on the same page; it is easier for my own mind to work in 2 dimensions; this expanding thing to reach for another.

With the felling, i try hard to keep my mind seeing the length as the leverageble amount dimension (to CG); then also the lean, but breaking that lean into 2 directions (for total of 3 dimensions) is harder to see and quantify through the same processes and examinations. Here too; we have the length to the hitchpoint from the pivot of the hinge to consider as the leverageable/length dimension, then the angle of pull from the support, to the hitchpoint; but there is once again 2 dimensions left over to describe that rope angle by, to observe the different possibilities, in the 3d world in this too.

i think that rigging support directly over something, to the side and over, pre-tightening up the line etc. are more 2 dimensional considerations, seeing how we can adjust that last dimension favorably/unfavorably/neutral as we can the other 2 dimensions of potential choices. i don't take this as normal rigging, but; noone taught me so perhaps it is what goes, and it took quite a while at looking at Dent's book to see the things i have about hinging etc.; but i think it deserves another look before branding it as usual buisness perhaps.

i think Murph and OR know what i mean more by this 3rd angle of adjustment of the line forcing into the hinge for support, just as it would seperate faster pulled away from the hinge, or even in a more neutral/in line with hitchpoint on this axis; but all with the same angle of pull to the Right, just different pulls along that line putting pressure to tear out or compress into the hinge. these movements can be very gracefull, as shear power is set against itself and things barely move (keeps dynamic forces low) in a light ballet; that looks as smooth and controlled as few other things of size; the orchestration of events at right times, jsut looks light and right or sumetin'

Part of the reason, a tree holds on so long during first part of felling(i think), is it's own weight, compresses back into this 'hinge pocket'; so i force it through this phase (stronger hinge) so that when the spar is getting less hinge pocket pressure (do to it's angle) and more leveraged load (do to same thing), hinge is then strong as needed (or more so). so, i find 'hinge pocket pressure' another factor, even here in felling.

i've tried to show things with words, and have resorted to drawings and pictures; in an effort to be understood more. i do think that the things are interrealated,a nd somethimes that, to be the real jewel of the whole deal; to lend that sight too if i could. Sometimes the process arrived to the conclusion is the most usable part i think, so throw that in to.

Or, something like that
:alien:



edit: will post drawing after present glitch is smoothed out.

 

[kowens]

ts i am not contredicting (spelling) what you arr saying just the way you are saying it its like a rembrant or a pacso

 

[rumination]

pacso?

Kowens, its not as if your posts are any more decipherable than Ken's

 

[kowens]

mabey the ken has something to do with it

ken

 

[murphy4trees]

SEE?

My tree brothers,
The thing about this technique is you have to see it to even understand what we're talking about.. Any talk of a butt line makes it clear you are not aware of what we're talking about...

Just trust me this is not a simple rigging technique that we've all used a hundred times... This is something you all have never seen..... And it's very difficult to explain it.. you just gotta see it...

My suggestion......VIDEO.......

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i guess pix are okay to post again!

Here is drawing i made a few daze ago.

i think an improtant element that is being missed is that if the support point is over the load, line has to tense to swing limb away form support point, so fights motion. If the support point is over to the side, load can swing to it; but; line slackens/load drops as it does, then there is the arrival point, as things finish under the ~support.

If line is placed at lower angle supporting and pulling into the hinge pocket, line tension is about the same, the whole ride; that is the reason for wider sweep and less drop, for the support position to the hitch position distance, about doesn't change in comparison to the other 2 options.

Or something like that,

:alien:

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Play don't work; so sweat more purchase from the line, then let load set line tighter (where the power is for task); before really going for it, making backcutting not just one stage.

Like a martial artist, set the force against itself, and let it self regulate it's needs; setting line so restrictively tight, that any motion or loading directly, intensely applys leverage to task, that in facts powers it. Another closed rig that like DdRT 2/1, Mayhem etc., that almost magic alterations seem to happen to forces, but really, they just are an example of how closely Nature follows the rules of Physics; even in the harder to visualize closed systems of turning load force postion to actually helping the system. Set it logically, but let system crunch math in the equal and opposite reaction response. If we need to just match force to float; and Nature gives an equal and opposite reaction, try to tap that equal and opposite to match the load force. Like a puzzle/maze; a path to be found ribboned down a gauntlet of options to the most powerful strategy to task.

Or, something like that
:alien:

Edit: i try to think of the hinge as a butt tie, especially when line carries load a fair deal more than hinge (switches to a magical 1st class lever, by virtue of weight bearing pivot switches from end to center i think). With the higne as a butt tie in this strategy, i make it a disposable one by cutting it, instead of untying. As opposed to always depending on having a butt support immediately available and having a disposable 15' of line, that ya just cut instead of dealing with another man to lower etc.

 

[wiley_p]

It seems that some folks try to make things seem more complex than they are, and if someone does not understand what is being said it is the fault of the instructor not the student, So maybe lets try to create a little less of an elitist club here Murphy, Oh I forgot you are published now so better get a pipe and a tweed coat.