Hired help

[avalancher]

I have done a lot of thinking on just this subject, namely because I find it so troublesome as a father of a 15 year old daughter. I love my daughter dearly, but sad to say when it comes to work ethic, she has none. And I wonder, how come?

Its not because she has no good role models. I work from the time I get up at five am, until an hour before bedtime, and during the summer months its often seven days a week. My wife is the same way, always working to make us a better life and can bake and cook with the best of them.In all honesty, I just cant see where we are not good examples of how hard work will get you anywhere you want to go in life.

But it doesnt bother her in the least to lay on the couch and text her friends, watch tv, or surf the net while the mom and dad scurry around cleaning house.Yes, I clean house, wash dishes,and do laundry. There is no such thing in our house as "womens work" or "mens work" I wash dishes when the need arrises, and its nothing to see my wife helping out on a tree job when I fall behind the eight ball.

But any requests for help from our teenage daughter is met with a pout, a scornful look, and if help is given its generally so poor in quality it needs to be done over again. Repeated efforts to make her go back and do it again until it is right nets nothing but a shouting match. And it truly makes me wonder, who is at fault here?

Several months ago, I had the occasion to lead our church youth group in an event to clean up an elderly ladies yard, and i was appalled at how poor the kids performed. My crew that works for me would have had that yard cleaned in six hours, and yet with 30 kids pulling brush we were there for 14 hours. And by late afternoon, I was slam wore out with the thought of having to come back a second day to finish the place. After conferring with a few other adults there, I was floored at their response to my frustrations.

"you dont make it fun for the kids Ed, you need to make it fun for them."

Are you kidding?Since when does work have to be fun? But to demonstrate, a radio was brought out, one adult started squiriting the kids with a garden hose, and within thirty minutes the pace of brush headed to the road picked up considerably. I watched and listened.

Back home, I decided to try this myself, and on Saturday I turned up the stereo, tickled daugher on the couch, and within minutes she was on her feet laughing and helping out. And deep down inside, I was seething. Work has to be fun.Really.

In retrospect, I realize now what is going on with kids these days. They are always bored, and must be constantly entertained. Mobile game, mobile phones, mobile entertainment. Life must always be fun. Kids have learned that every minute of every day must be fun. There is no more bust your hump with the idea to get a job done, and sad to say many adults have joined in on this thought process. Fun has never entered the picture in my mind when it comes to work,but it seems to be a necessary element these days to get anything done.

Kind of reminds me of Rome before the fall.

 

[zogger]

I have done a lot of thinking on just this subject, namely because I find it so troublesome as a father of a 15 year old daughter. I love my daughter dearly, but sad to say when it comes to work ethic, she has none. And I wonder, how come?

Its not because she has no good role models. I work from the time I get up at five am, until an hour before bedtime, and during the summer months its often seven days a week. My wife is the same way, always working to make us a better life and can bake and cook with the best of them.In all honesty, I just cant see where we are not good examples of how hard work will get you anywhere you want to go in life.

But it doesnt bother her in the least to lay on the couch and text her friends, watch tv, or surf the net while the mom and dad scurry around cleaning house.Yes, I clean house, wash dishes,and do laundry. There is no such thing in our house as "womens work" or "mens work" I wash dishes when the need arrises, and its nothing to see my wife helping out on a tree job when I fall behind the eight ball.

But any requests for help from our teenage daughter is met with a pout, a scornful look, and if help is given its generally so poor in quality it needs to be done over again. Repeated efforts to make her go back and do it again until it is right nets nothing but a shouting match. And it truly makes me wonder, who is at fault here?

Several months ago, I had the occasion to lead our church youth group in an event to clean up an elderly ladies yard, and i was appalled at how poor the kids performed. My crew that works for me would have had that yard cleaned in six hours, and yet with 30 kids pulling brush we were there for 14 hours. And by late afternoon, I was slam wore out with the thought of having to come back a second day to finish the place. After conferring with a few other adults there, I was floored at their response to my frustrations.

"you dont make it fun for the kids Ed, you need to make it fun for them."

Are you kidding?Since when does work have to be fun? But to demonstrate, a radio was brought out, one adult started squiriting the kids with a garden hose, and within thirty minutes the pace of brush headed to the road picked up considerably. I watched and listened.

Back home, I decided to try this myself, and on Saturday I turned up the stereo, tickled daugher on the couch, and within minutes she was on her feet laughing and helping out. And deep down inside, I was seething. Work has to be fun.Really.

In retrospect, I realize now what is going on with kids these days. They are always bored, and must be constantly entertained. Mobile game, mobile phones, mobile entertainment. Life must always be fun. Kids have learned that every minute of every day must be fun. There is no more bust your hump with the idea to get a job done, and sad to say many adults have joined in on this thought process. Fun has never entered the picture in my mind when it comes to work,but it seems to be a necessary element these days to get anything done.

Kind of reminds me of Rome before the fall.

What, not fun???? Everything I do is fun, "hard" or not. I wouldn't do a lick of work if it wasn't fun. Hard is irrelevant, some is easy, some sorta hard, some sucks..who cares? Think about sports, people will work *the* hardest a hooman bean can work to achieve sports high level competence. I mow a lot, when I mow it is cool, I am making loot operating diesel equipment..what's not to like? Take out the tractor and go do something, hey I am getting paid to go bogging/offroad cruising!! Cut wood, big fun! At night/late evening at the end of my "work" day when I split with the fiskars, I sweat like a pyramid builder under some pharaoah's foreman's supervision, yet I still do it and have fun doing it.

Most likely I could "make more money" doing something I don't like to do (go back to sales for instance), but I can't see the point.

 

[avalancher]

What, not fun???? Everything I do is fun, "hard" or not. I wouldn't do a lick of work if it wasn't fun. Hard is irrelevant, some is easy, some sorta hard, some sucks..who cares? Think about sports, people will work *the* hardest a hooman bean can work to achieve sports high level competence. I mow a lot, when I mow it is cool, I am making loot operating diesel equipment..what's not to like? Take out the tractor and go do something, hey I am getting paid to go bogging/offroad cruising!! Cut wood, big fun! At night/late evening at the end of my "work" day when I split with the fiskars, I sweat like a pyramid builder under some pharaoah's foreman's supervision, yet I still do it and have fun doing it.

Most likely I could "make more money" doing something I don't like to do (go back to sales for instance), but I can't see the point.

Nothing wrong with having fun while working, nothing at all. But when you wont do the job because it aint fun, well, thats where the problem is. Sure, when it comes to career its great to have a job that you enjoy, but sometimes life just wont hand you an opportunity right when you want it to have fun while working. Worked a couple of dozen jobs in my life, and some of them just werent fun. But they put bread on the table.

 

[Hedgerow]

Nothing wrong with having fun while working, nothing at all. But when you wont do the job because it aint fun, well, thats where the problem is. Sure, when it comes to career its great to have a job that you enjoy, but sometimes life just wont hand you an opportunity right when you want it to have fun while working. Worked a couple of dozen jobs in my life, and some of them just werent fun. But they put bread on the table.

Then maybe hunger is the last option to put someone in the right frame of mind to work.
Healthy motivation, if you will...
If a man does not work, then he should not eat...
Seems I've heard that somewhere before...:msp_sneaky:

 

[Dalmatian90]

Interesting story Avalancher.

"Fun" ... what you're describing might be better phrased as "stimulation"; in fact when I was trying to find the right way to phrase it in terms of ADD without grabbing one of the books off my shelf, I found the following which fits this situation to a tee:

The Search for Stimulation

One of the problems in understanding attention deficit hyperactivity disorder is the limitations of its name. It's a pretty good name, better than the earlier names we used, such as "minimal brain dysfunction" and "hyperkinetic syndrome." Using attention deficit hyperactivity disorder is better because it reaches closer to the core of the disorder: the difficulty in sustaining attention to tasks, rather than simply the hyperactivity. But even this name falls short in helping families understand the disorder, as in Timmy's case. Saying Timmy has attention deficit hyperactivity disorder sounds like Timmy has two problems: an inability to pay attention and hyperactivity.

Let's examine the term, taking on the second part of it first. Hyperactivity is just one symptom. And as with any disorder people don't necessarily have all the symptoms. Timmy, for example, is not hyperactive. Secondly, regarding "attention deficit." Timmy's parents do not see their child as having an attention problem, but rather an attitude problem. To his parents, Timmy seems not to care. If he only had a better attitude, they reason, he would do his work and he would not get into so much trouble. Timmy's parents were certain he could pay attention if he wanted to.

If I was in charge of renaming ADHD, and I'm not, I would call it the "search for stimulation disorder." To explain this, let's look at the problem of Timmy's attention. Timmy has difficulty sticking to tasks such as homework or other relatively less interesting chores, such as cleaning up his room. To Timmy's parents, it wasn't that he couldn't do his chores, but that he just didn't want to do them.

Timmy's parents are partially right. Timmy can do things that he is interested in, but he has trouble with jobs that require more sustained effort. It's not because he doesn't care; it's because, more than most other people, he needs to find something interesting for it to hold his attention.

The Search for Stimulation: Understanding Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder

I found out a couple years ago I have ADD, and when I'm on meds it's an HUGE change in my ability to focus...and do boring work.

If I was just a couple years younger or perhaps lived in a little bit less rural community I probably would've been on Ritalin as a kid -- my mom had the old paperwork and they had discussed it back when I was around 9 (too young for me to really remember the details till she told me). Part of the reason it wasn't pursued more stridently is I wasn't a discipline problem, and I have a fairly high IQ so I could bull my way through classwork and get decent grades.

I am absolutely convinced I would've had a much, much, MUCH easier time in college had I been on Ritalin or a similar medication.

One of the surprising things is I don't necessarily realize how much better I'm doing while on the meds...it's when I forget them that I catch myself in old habits. Or when I finish a relatively minor project and realize, "Geez, I just finished that without having to run out six times to four different stores to get something?"

What we really brought clarity to me one day is when I was doing work on-site at a large company in a cube farm (recent years I mostly work from home). The day I forgot to take the pills, I caught myself in the relative quiet of the cubes humming tunes to myself and fiddling with pens and other stuff continually. THAT stuff used to be normal for me, and I rarely do it when I take the meds. The ADD folks do it because those we're craving those little bits of stimulation, like a lab rat obsessively hitting a button.

My ADD certainly pre-dates modern gadgetry (and video games (which were around but my family didn't have), and ubiquitous all day-long children's TV, etc). I don't know if they can *cause* it, but I wouldn't be surprised if those things can take a lot of folks who might be borderline and trip them into full on ADD but setting a new, higher baseline of what they expect by giving them a more or less constant stream of little bits of stimulation -- just what you're describing by tickling or spraying with a garden hose.

 

[chucker]

it just seems that if you took 10 kids from across this fine country at random and put them to work on a easy job there would be 2 that would probably make it happen.... 10 young adults = 2 that will make it to the top of the accepted ladder of success.... 3 that will make a good pay check employee.... the next 3 that will show up for a days workor two for party money. and the last 2 ?? well these will be standing in line waiting for the next hand out... its looking like if something is going to be hard rather than easy they dont want to do it... what more can we expect from our giving society of leisure an comfort??.............

 

[avalancher]

Interesting story Avalancher.

"Fun" ... what you're describing might be better phrased as "stimulation"; in fact when I was trying to find the right way to phrase it in terms of ADD without grabbing one of the books off my shelf, I found the following which fits this situation to a tee:



The Search for Stimulation: Understanding Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder

I found out a couple years ago I have ADD, and when I'm on meds it's an HUGE change in my ability to focus...and do boring work.

If I was just a couple years younger or perhaps lived in a little bit less rural community I probably would've been on Ritalin as a kid -- my mom had the old paperwork and they had discussed it back when I was around 9 (too young for me to really remember the details till she told me). Part of the reason it wasn't pursued more stridently is I wasn't a discipline problem, and I have a fairly high IQ so I could bull my way through classwork and get decent grades.

I am absolutely convinced I would've had a much, much, MUCH easier time in college had I been on Ritalin or a similar medication.

One of the surprising things is I don't necessarily realize how much better I'm doing while on the meds...it's when I forget them that I catch myself in old habits. Or when I finish a relatively minor project and realize, "Geez, I just finished that without having to run out six times to four different stores to get something?"

What we really brought clarity to me one day is when I was doing work on-site at a large company in a cube farm (recent years I mostly work from home). The day I forgot to take the pills, I caught myself in the relative quiet of the cubes humming tunes to myself and fiddling with pens and other stuff continually. THAT stuff used to be normal for me, and I rarely do it when I take the meds. The ADD folks do it because those we're craving those little bits of stimulation, like a lab rat obsessively hitting a button.

My ADD certainly pre-dates modern gadgetry (and video games (which were around but my family didn't have), and ubiquitous all day-long children's TV, etc). I don't know if they can *cause* it, but I wouldn't be surprised if those things can take a lot of folks who might be borderline and trip them into full on ADD but setting a new, higher baseline of what they expect by giving them a more or less constant stream of little bits of stimulation -- just what you're describing by tickling or spraying with a garden hose.

Well, here again, I dont have a problem with having to "stimulate" someone to work. We all know (at least anyone who has worked with animals) that often you have to stimulate them properly sometimes to achieve the result you need. Dangle a carrot in front of a mule, give a treat after a job well done, etc. But what blows my gaskets is that even after proper "stimulation" some folks just wont rise to the occasion. Here is an example.

Last spring my ice maker broke on the new fridge, flooding the kitchen with water over night. Lost the entire hardwood floor in the kitchen, and after the insurance company paid out i over course decided to rip it out myself and do the living room as well. Hired a kid that my wife taught in school to help pull the floor up.
Now pulling up flooring is hard work, especially when I screwed the 3/4 inch plywood to the deck prior to laying the floor down the first time.So I figured I would treat the kid right. Paid him a good wage, added a bonus if we got it done by the end of day, bought him pizza for lunch, and looked the other way when he flirted with my daughter. The result?
Three kitchen cabinets bashed in with a crow bar. Even after repeatedly telling him to stay away from the cabinets with the pry bar. Finally resorted to taking away the prybar and assigned him the job of hauling the wood pieces out the door to the trailer.

then the front door was bashed in twice, one window broken, and every plant mowed down in the front flower bed.Sent the daughter away in case she was a distraction, the damage continued. Sent him home at 3pm with half the floor done.

Hired a neighbor kid, told him to be there at 8am. He showed up at 11am and said he wanted to eat lunch before starting work. Sent him packing on the spot.

Hired a friends son, he assured me that he was a hard working kid, and would be there bright and early to move cabinets and haul the carpet out of the hall way. Sure, he showed up at 8am, worked pretty good till 1pm, then announced he was going out with his friends that night and needed to go home and take a nap as he had a "big night planned out"

The end result? I did the entire job myself after that. Sure, I provided every incentive I could think of, pizza, bonus, you name it. But in the end, I did the job myself. And after subtracting the hours I spent remaking the cabinet doors, repairing the window, repainting the front door after the body work, and replanting the flower bed, I discovered that I could have done the entire job myself and saved myself 19 hours and $425 in wages.

So much for the hired "help"

 

[slowp]

What is success? Is it constantly working so you can buy more stuff? Do you live to work? I guess you would if your work was fun. Or do you work to live--which is what those fiesty French folk do? Why can't work be interspersed with fun? Or interesting?

When it is 2:30 in the morning on the fireline, you have to think of stuff to keep going. The standbys? Name the 7 dwarfs. Name all the Brady Bunch kids...etc. anything to keep your mind off how tired you are and how badly you want to lay down and sleep.

I didn't ever figure we were in any danger when the dead lodgepole was flaming around us while we hunkered in a meadow...I remember John M. bellowing out "FIVE MORE MINUTES AND WE'D A HAD 'ER SWARPED! GIVE US FIVE MORE MINUTES!" That made our crew laugh while another popped their shelters.

When the job is hard and nasty, one needs to take stock and have a sense of humor. I just answered my question--humor makes a job more fun.

You'll find some hard working people have a good sense of humor, and know how to use it. And if it takes music to get your kid to work, then put on the music! There's nothing wrong with that, unless you are hunting, or working in a sleep ward.

We had a radio along when I worked in the orchards. It made things more tolerable.

I don't remember day in and day out of slapping trees in the ground. I remember rolling big boulders down the hill at lunch time, and watching them knock over the snags. Marking timber day after day? Well, this was interspersed with great scenery, some practical jokes, and if we finished a sale early, a game of pinecone baseball.

There's nothing bad with today's kids. I think they are the same as we were, and adults said the same things about us.

Maybe the kids are smarter, and won't get sucked into the rat race of working your butt off for a company, sacrificing your health, only to be laid off when the company moves overseas. Maybe they'll take some time off, and think about their priorities--like more time with their families. I hope they can. There's nothing wrong with that, if they make enough to pay their bills.

 

[Dalmatian90]

There's nothing bad with today's kids. I think they are the same as we were, and adults said the same things about us.

I think that's more true then not.

HOWEVER...

I think there's also three other factors at play today.

One, as I mentioned in my last post, is ADD and today's technology/gadgetry can really tweak that up in folks. You get used to the constant little stream of stimulation and (for some) it makes it harder to concentrate. There's always been folks like that. A century (or even 150) ago we did a lot more work "socially" -- took more people, it was quieter without the power tools...I suspect those ADD folks would've drifted towards the chatter and ball busting of folks working together. Today we have fewer opportunities, and more often then not it's working with more focus and power tools.

Two, we suffer increasingly from a wealth of choices. The tyranny of choice: You choose | The Economist explains it better then I can; but kids increasingly have more options (in some ways) then we did -- it might manifest itself with staying up too late the night before work more often, and/or it might increase the amount of "regret" they have that they're working and not doing something else. Not that those things didn't happen in past generations, but there is good research to believe it's probably happening more often.

Third, from personal observation, I think there is either in an decrease in average stamina of kids...OR...there is a self-perception of decrease in stamina (i.e. they throw in the towel sooner, think if they don't have a bottle of water with them on a one mile morning walk they'll suffer dehydration, or if they get into something they really didn't like instead of saying they won't do that again...they go to the ER with a "panic attack."...all things I saw at the Fire Company starting about a decade ago.) I'm not expecting everyone to be your typical farm boy...but if you can't walk a mile in a parade without drinking water I'm kind of curious how you'd do on a brush fire. The department photos definitely show a heavier membership, but I don't think it's 32 ounce Cokes at the root of this...I think it's more that they don't get out and play and try a bunch of different activities with no / minimal adult supervision these days, and that's impacting their confidence in odd ways. Yes, they're typically cocky kids; but at the same time they shy away from some situations because they don't think they can do it...great, all the attitude, none of the gumption.

It's not everyone; I know some young kids who can put their nose the grindstone and get things done. Two of my nephews...the older one I would've had to drown him if I ever worked with him , but his younger brother was the best worker you could hope for. Indeed, the younger one ran a lawn mowing business from 12 through college, earned Masters degree in Mechanical Engineering, and had his Air Force pilots wings before his older brother finally finished his Bachelors degree (also in Mechanical Engineering). Same genes, same home environment, same intelligence, etc & so forth, just two very different kids in their hustle and focus.

 

[Dale]

Rio_Grande,

Not the kids of todays fault.

Mummy and Daddy buy them whatever they want, they never fall down so never have any idea that the world realy loves to push just to see if you can get back up.
They get cars and clothes and cell phone plans so they can speak to 100 people they think are friends and spend much of the rest of time on twitter and facebook.

When reality hits home like work it's a serious chore that mommy and Daddy should save them from.

When the well dries up at some point they will be people with no survival skills.

Was gonna post til you summed it up nicely. Hey, I guess I did post afterall.

 

[avalancher]

We sure sound like a bunch of old farts, dont we? Sitting around, bashing the new generation, and cutting loose with "you kids just dont know how to work...."


Funny part is, I remember getting the same lecture when I was a kid. "Shoot youngen, you have no idea what a long day is, not even a clue. I used to come home from school, change my clothes, and was lucky to get my chores done before bedtime. Now all you kids got them new fangled dirt bikes to ride out and get the cows in time for milking, and milk machines too! And dont get me started about chainsaws! We used to have to buck wood with a cross saw, after we chopped it down with an axe! And we didnt waste wood with no seventy degrees in the house neither, we were plumb glad if it was over fifty in the house, had to chip the ice off my blanket just to get out of bed in the morning...."

wow, old grand dad could go for hours about how easy we had it. He was probably right too!

 

[Fred Wright]

Well... for us folks who grew up in the '60s, there wasn't much to do at home during summer. We had chores like mowing, working the garden etc. But when that was done, if we didn't make ourselves scarce, Mom, Granny or a spinster aunt staying with us at the time would find something for us to do.

Chores done, I was outta there... man I'd rather take a good, swift kick upside the head than scrub floors.

There weren't any video games or computers. We didn't have AC in the house. The television set had 3 channels (that worked) and they had brainless game shows and soap operas on all day. So when Mom said go play outside, that's what we did. It was hotter in the house than it was outdoors anyway.

They had small engine repair shop classes in public schools then. I acquired the tools and started saving my old man some serious dough on mower repairs. I remember Mom seeing the mower engine in pieces on a bench one day... she was shocked. I told her it would be back together and working that evening. It was.

I was mowing lawns and raking leaves for the older neighbors and church ladies. It didn't pay much but it paid better than doing nothing. As long as I kept our lawn mowed and kept the mower maintained I was free to mow all the neighbor's lawns I wanted.

This old dog wouldn't push a mower for four hours for $5.00 now to save my soul. I'm too old for that stuff. But I've gotta give Mom credit for not allowing us kids to just sit around all summer doing nothing.

Can't speak for the younger generation. But to this day I can't let good weather go to waste. I'll find something to do.