How long can you keep the throttle wide open without load?

[Gratewhitehuntr]

In the meantime, I am thinking just how ****ing dumb are you people.

IMHO, while there is much talk about AI getting rid of truckers, the bad engineers will be the first to go.
Sadly maybe some of the good ones too. A friend who teaches machine learning at a well known university assures me that major manufacturers are using AI to fine tune planned obsolescence. As in, he has had direct contact with it's current application in this field.

if you're loling at me, I may be niave or ignorant, lacking in tact, but I'm far from dumb

 

[sean donato]

A friend of mine was recently shopping the early 2000s "Triton" 4.6 F150s, I went to check on the thread situation.
My impression is that the 2 valve engines had a couple extra threads.
V10 and some 3 valves had issues, but I couldn't determine WHICH ones. Anyway, that 3v timing setup, derp!

Magical thinking. True. Waiting does make it worse. True.
The big gap does causes coil failures. (this particular COP seems fragile to begin with)
Blow it out, hose PB blaster, blow it out again, lube again. Wait a day, or a week. Hand tools only.
Switch to nat-gas oil to clean out the VVT slip-fit parts, I've seen a couple with stumble at idle for this reason.
And since the natgas oil is usually at the thin end of it's weight range, going to 0-30 would be fine at 165k.

My iridium #s were conservative because forced induction being haut again. It's harder on plugs, ime.
Otherwise, iridium is basically a lifetime purchase in NA engines. Saws are the only copper plugs I still use.

What? Why gap? If people can declare that they won't rev free engines, or change the plugs, I feel zero qualms re-gapping a $15 spark plug.
What not to do? Assume that shelf-gap is consistent, or even the right gap for your engine. haha parts changers FTW!

Dude is definitely peak Boomer. I can learn from ANY man, if only, how NOT to do it.
To say that differently... hmm... wait I'll come up with something...

EDIT: OMG now anti-seize is controversial? um... huh.

The 2 valve engines did not have this issue at all. The plugs were located in a different are thay had a thicker casting resulting in more threads. Any plugs flying out is from a dumb monkey over tightening the plugs. The 3 valve engines had this issue, although by now they either should have been fixed or scrapped. We did tons of thread repairs on them at the machine shop. I doubt id be exagerating if i said thousands. Well that and getting broken exhaust studs out. If you used a torque wrench you didnt typically have an issue. Most people woulnt know the difference between 35inlb and 35 ft lbs. The v10 had the same issues in the 3 valve varrient. It was ultimately fixed in all the engines with a running update. The 2 piece plug was an issue as well, but I couldn't hardly blame ford for that, autolight screwed the pooch on that one as ford's oem plug mfg. Even so that issue has gone by the wayside.
As to plug longevity, Ford started running platinum plugs in the late 90's early 2000's and switched to iridium at some point. Couldn't tell you exactly when, I know our 2011 edge had them in from the factory and our 14 f250 v10 had them as well. Really either plug will go in excess of 100k miles with little issues. Actually I had close to 200k miles on the factory plugs in my expedition. If I didn't pull them when changing coils and have new plugs on hand I would have left them in. Additionally they do not need gapped. Keeping the iridium nodes aligned is much more important then adjusting the gap to whatever you think it should be set at. Once bent you lost alignment. It's not a pos copper plug in your lawn mower. Plug gap wasn't the main issue for failing coils l, it was predominantly breaking down from heat soaking. Of you ever cared to pay attention the rear cylinders on the passenger side were the biggest issues in the v8/v10 although all of their engines had similar issues to one extent or another. A good set of aftermarket coils solved that issue. Im.now just shy of 300k miles on the expedition and still not having issues with the msd coils or even remotely worried about the plugs.
As a side bar, if you're paying $15.00 per double iridium plug, you're getting ripped off.

 

[sean donato]

crevice corrosion of dis-similar metals, there is no magic
The problem was the loss of total thread strength when switching from iron to aluminum, then again with a marginal design in aluminum heads, and mechanics doing things by feel. I admit to this, torquing spark plugs by feel (crush washer yield) , and lots of other bolts too.
Not THOSE plugs, and the fact that people are aware of the issue has reduced (as far as I can tell) the "the gun JUST went off!" type snafu.
Note the over-correction. Don't let your BIL win like this

I suspect that the early "spitting plugs out" was the result of crush washers with higher crush torque rating than the maximum torque the mechanic was willing to apply. IIRC once upon a time I was putting plugs in a 4.6 and they had a crush washer which was not sufficiently compressed at the peak (whatever spec we had) torque. It felt strange on the torque wrench.
(that's the sort of thing they quietly change, and forget ever happened)

I have seen 4.6 plugs online with head threads on the plug, claiming it was just spit out including shearing the threads. I cannot know.
Hmm. Now that I typed this out, IIRC the last 4.6 plug set I did was lacking crush washers. Koinkydink?

Just to be clear, at 165K I'm in agreement with Mr. @Breckinridge Elkins , replacement. Real high mileage and age is not the same as a plug abused by forced induction, incorrect fuel mixture, or dropping on the ground Why else? LOL. Plugs are almost free compared to fuel, or my time spent chasing a miss.

I don't know what 4.6/5.8/6.8l you've work on, but ford's mod motors never used a crush washer on the plug, they have a tapered seat.

 

[Gratewhitehuntr]

once upon a time plug prices were something else, and you know *cough* back before everyone was rich
now I'd expect to pay $4-6 with the upper end being NGK, still $15 for Denso and they can keep it
most are so cheap, I've put them in places where it couldn't possibly matter, because copper plug prices have risen near par

heat soak is one issue, but often times I've found the bad COP l on a plug gapped at 100 to 120 because people wouldn't change them
New plug, coil still bad (come on, I'm better than that)
this is my general experience across many brands, I'm not a certified anything, and I quit wrenching for money a few years ago

Back on topic. If I had a 4.6, EVEN a free one I would not be revving it at all.

I don't know what 4.6/5.8/6.8l you've work on, but ford's mod motors never used a crush washer on the plug, they have a tapered seat.

I said it seemed strange. You know how people are about cars.
"Can you fix it yesterday? I brought you the parts!"
I used to do basic work on anything that came to me, it's really hard to keep track. In this case, I know for sure it was a 96-98 Stang because the new styling was revolting, and they finished the massacre with that engine. Red, faded peeling weak arse red, teen driven.

As far as telling me about this and that. Pfft. I'm just saying what I've seen, it is what it is.
image search Denso 3403, Napa 3403, NGK 3403, do some application checks
I swear I've seen this number crossed over to a plug with a crush washer
unless you knew, it might never catch your eye, and I do appreciate you pointing it out

 

[bwalker]

In regards to iridium plugs. If your not buying the double iridium it's a waste of time. Double iridium have a fine wire iridium center electrode and the ground strap has an iridium or other precious metal disk. If the ground strap isnt iridium as well, it just burns away like a normal plug.

 

[Gratewhitehuntr]

I went to look, because back then I was a hack and now I'm not a good enough machinist to have plug threads memorized for everything. But it did make me wonder.
Here is a Denso 3403
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=993014&cc=0&pt=7212&jsn=524
here is NGk 3403
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=69194&cc=1134245&pt=7212&jsn=471
Same number, different plug.
This is only an idea I had, pending confirmation of thread pitch

EDIT, both plugs tentatively (internet) confirmed 14 mm x 1.25 mm pitch
there it is folks, I solved the non-Hammphist blowed-out Ford-Modular plug-mystery
just now, live, you saw it here

 

[Breckinridge Elkins]

That Iridium is just a thin plating on a fine wire electrode. If you are prying on it to set gap you are almost certainly damaging the plating or changing the alignment.

 

[sean donato]

once upon a time plug prices were something else, and you know *cough* back before everyone was rich
now I'd expect to pay $4-6 with the upper end being NGK, still $15 for Denso and they can keep it
most are so cheap, I've put them in places where it couldn't possibly matter, because copper plug prices have risen near par

heat soak is one issue, but often times I've found the bad COP l on a plug gapped at 100 to 120 because people wouldn't change them
New plug, coil still bad (come on, I'm better than that)
this is my general experience across many brands, I'm not a certified anything, and I quit wrenching for money a few years ago

Back on topic. If I had a 4.6, EVEN a free one I would not be revving it at all.


I said it seemed strange. You know how people are about cars.
"Can you fix it yesterday? I brought you the parts!"
I used to do basic work on anything that came to me, it's really hard to keep track. In this case, I know for sure it was a 96-98 Stang because the new styling was revolting, and they finished the massacre with that engine. Red, faded peeling weak arse red, teen driven.

As far as telling me about this and that. Pfft. I'm just saying what I've seen, it is what it is.
image search Denso 3403, Napa 3403, NGK 3403, do some application checks
I swear I've seen this number crossed over to a plug with a crush washer
unless you knew, it might never catch your eye, and I do appreciate you pointing it out

Yes, I know exactly how they are. 2 uncles do automotive work, one owns his own shop, I ran over the road heavy duty diesel for years. Fixed plenty of other peoples screw ups. Usually it went about like this, take it somewhere else if you're in a hurry, I'll fix it right or not at all.

 

[Gratewhitehuntr]

That could very well be, just a plating. I don't know.
Maybe someone should acid test an old one? See how much of the electrode can ruin a file?
Does anyone have data on electrode composition? plating thickness? Progression of the tech?
Serious question. Is there a BITOG for spark plugs?

I did a quick read now and think I see what Mr. Breckenridge is on about. If the electrode is in fact plated (I'm assuming that this is correct) then there would be danger of the substrate yielding and the harder iridium plating chipping off.
This is interesting, and now I REALLY wonder how thick the iridium is, and what's underneath it.

EDIT: there are some yt channels such as sreetips who extract precious metals from scrap. I wonder if anyone did the calcs on recovery from sparkplugs? A young friend of mine once had a calculation for the quantity of precious metals accumulated in road-dirt from catalytic converters. Really.

 

[bwalker]

That could very well be, just a plating. I don't know.
Maybe someone should acid test an old one? See how much of the electrode can ruin a file?
Does anyone have data on electrode composition? plating thickness? Progression of the tech?
Serious question. Is there a BITOG for spark plugs?

I did a quick read now and think I see what Mr. Breckenridge is on about. If the electrode is in fact plated (I'm assuming that this is correct) then there would be danger of the substrate yielding and the harder iridium plating chipping off.
This is interesting, and now I REALLY wonder how thick the iridium is, and what's underneath it.

EDIT: there are some yt channels such as sreetips who extract precious metals from scrap. I wonder if anyone did the calcs on recovery from sparkplugs? A young friend of mine once had a calculation for the quantity of precious metals accumulated in road-dirt from catalytic converters. Really.

How thick the plating is doesn't matter. The NGK and Denso versions work very well.
And no, you should not gap iridium plugs guys.

 

[Gratewhitehuntr]

OK boss! Now I see how the saw-tuner-wars got started.
I dunno if you bois is confused about gaps, like maybe we talkin' 'bout points here?
Nobody is suggesting to get out your mandi-cure file and hog the gap out square.

Golly. I've got this machine here blowing out the fire at peak boost.
Fuel is good, timing is good, coil pack within specs, wires new, plugs new, comp good.

Should we swap a new $240 ignition module, the $180 coil pack? It was worse with the other plugs, $80 wasted.
I'll switch engines! Switch brands! I'll go live on the moon!

Nope. Closed the gap up 6 thou and never had a problem again until... haha... you guessed it, the plugs eroded slightly and started blowing out the fire again. Did I buy new plugs? Nope! Closed them up again.

Yah see, the plating thickness DOES matter, because I'm paying for that plating, and I want something for my money.
If it's OK with you, Boss.


(this may seem a bit hyperbolic but, imagine if someone told you that the thickness of gold plating didn't matter, derp, it's a rediculous statement if viewed through this simple filter)

 

[HansFranz]

When I had to replace a plug on my Ford, I used the OEM Autolite platinum plug and followed the instructions in the shop manual to the letter.

With all the problems with plugs and aluminum heads on that motor, I wouldn't switch to another plug on a bet.

YMMV and probably will.

 

[bwalker]

OK boss! Now I see how the saw-tuner-wars got started.
I dunno if you bois is confused about gaps, like maybe we talkin' 'bout points here?
Nobody is suggesting to get out your mandi-cure file and hog the gap out square.

Golly. I've got this machine here blowing out the fire at peak boost.
Fuel is good, timing is good, coil pack within specs, wires new, plugs new, comp good.

Should we swap a new $240 ignition module, the $180 coil pack? It was worse with the other plugs, $80 wasted.
I'll switch engines! Switch brands! I'll go live on the moon!

Nope. Closed the gap up 6 thou and never had a problem again until... haha... you guessed it, the plugs eroded slightly and started blowing out the fire again. Did I buy new plugs? Nope! Closed them up again.

Yah see, the plating thickness DOES matter, because I'm paying for that plating, and I want something for my money.
If it's OK with you, Boss.


(this may seem a bit hyperbolic but, imagine if someone told you that the thickness of gold plating didn't matter, derp, it's a rediculous statement if viewed through this simple filter)

As long as the coating has proven to be durable and it has, that's should be your only concern.
NIcisil is very thin compared to a cast iron liner and we all know which one is superior.

 

[bwalker]

When I had to replace a plug on my Ford, I used the OEM Autolite platinum plug and followed the instructions in the shop manual to the letter.

With all the problems with plugs and aluminum heads on that motor, I wouldn't switch to another plug on a bet.

YMMV and probably will.

I've never owned a Ford, but I can't see how using something other than a Autolight would make a differance.
I think the most important thing is to use an accurate torque wrench.
Or just buy a Toyota..lol

 

[HansFranz]

I can't see how using something other than a Autolight would make a differance.

I don't know, seems like you hear a lot of stories about supposedly "interchangeable" plugs having different heat ranges or otherwise being "different" enough to cause trouble of various kinds.

And being that I have 165k miles and counting on 7 out of 8 of these plugs, I think it's safe to say that they work fairly well.

So why risk changing plugs, particularly on an engine as problem-prone regarding replacing spark plugs as this one?

Toyotas are nice...if you don't mind them rusting in half in a few years.

 

[bwalker]

I don't know, seems like you hear a lot of stories about supposedly "interchangeable" plugs having different heat ranges or otherwise being "different" enough to cause trouble of various kinds.

And being that I have 165k miles and counting on 7 out of 8 of these plugs, I think it's safe to say that they work fairly well.

So why risk changing plugs, particularly on an engine as problem-prone regarding replacing spark plugs as this one?

Toyotas are nice...if you don't mind them rusting in half in a few years.

Most of those stories are just that...stories. You can go up and down a heat range or two and it's not a big deal with a car in most cases. I've ran NGK heat range 6 plugs in applications that used a 8 stock and 10's in those using a 8 stock.

My Taco is going on 12 years old with 6 spent in the most heavily salted part of the US. No rust on the body or frame.
Fortunately Toyota warranties most of those trucks. Dana Corp was at fault as they made the frames using junk steel.

 

[Gratewhitehuntr]

I owe an apology to the people in this thread, for my recent rant. I'm sorry.
It was not intended to be read as being directed at anyone here, EVERYONE here is cool.
I was having a physical reaction to the memory of a certain Service Dept Manager who rotated excuses.
"You bought it, it's your problem now sucker!"
also
"If you attempt repairs, you will void the warranty."
also
"We are NOT going to fix it under warranty."

Like the guy you'd hire to man the phones in customer-no-service at a toilet manufacturer, after placing a warranty valid if sticker removed holding down the lid of EVERY new toilet they sell.
"Yes Ser, the warranty is void if the sticker is removed."
"Yes Ser, we DID place it over the lid."
"Well Ser, it's like this. After you've used the toilet, that's YOUR !!! Haha! Hahahaa!"
Then he hangs up.
If you call back, they leave you on hold until you forget why you called.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, just got caught up in a flashback of the PTSD of modern automotive culture.
Again. Sorry.
FWIW, if you find yourself in a similar situation, here is what it means.
THEY CAN'T FIX IT, BECAUSE IT'S TOO COMPLICATED!

 

[Gratewhitehuntr]

I can't see how using something other than a Autolight would make a differance.
I think the most important thing is to use an accurate torque wrench.

Sure. Most of EVERYTHING is now fungible. Look at the oil burning fiasco a couple years ago, possibly still going on.
100 years of pistons, suddenly multiple MAJOR manufacturers can't make an engine which doesn't burn 1L per 2k km?
Yeah right, gtfo, it's obvious that they're all sourcing the same JUNK.

I did point out earlier the clash of the Denso 3403 (crush washer plug) fitting into the Ford Mod family, in place of NGK 3403 ( a non-crush washer plug) and my theory how this caused some early Mod family plug spitting. It's my own personal theory, heard no-where else, because this thread got me wondering about plugs I ordered recently. I have zero proof, only once-upon-a-time remembering something odd, and some detective work loooong after the fact.

Otherwise, I don't blame Hanz for being cautious. A lot of mechanics (people who fancy themselves mechanics) look down on those using the FSM. Nope. The ONLY shame in using the FSM, is if you STILL manage to mess it up
Otherwise, the divergence from traditional automotive diagnostic (common sense) means that Joe Av shadetree SHOULD have and USE the FSM. It's the first thing I do, find and download the FSM.

Regarding heat range. LOL. I once heli'd the longest iridium I could into an oilburning push mower, longest that didn't smack the piston.
That bought an extra 1/3 more time before it fouled out, and the mower ran like that until developing diarrhea of the piston ring and hydrolocking on attempts to restart. I ran actual Malathion through the crankcase, as a smoke joke, but the exhaust made me sick

This brings to mind another sort of mechanic. When it runs we're done!

 

[Chucksta]

Ummm.. yeah... O.K. Gonna ask what is probably a dumb question..
The OP asked about a "NO load" WOT time frame. IMHO, no load, would mean exactly that .. NO load. To me, that would mean no bar, or chain, as they are a load to the engine. But, it seems like the OP was referring to tuning with a bar and saw chain on.
I ( used to), have two identical saws... One with a 14 inch bar, one with a 20 inch bar. Why? Because the 14 inch bar gave more power to the saw chain, in a smaller cut. The 20 inch was for stuff that needed a 20 inch bar, if that makes any sense.
So, if you're tuning a saw with a bigger bar, do you tune it differently? Do you re-tune the saw if you change the size of the bar? Or, just go by 4 stroking on the smallest ( shortest) bar that you'll use on the saw, and not worry about it if you switch to a longer bar?

 

[anynameyouwish]

Ummm.. yeah... O.K. Gonna ask what is probably a dumb question..
The OP asked about a "NO load" WOT time frame. IMHO, no load, would mean exactly that .. NO load. To me, that would mean no bar, or chain, as they are a load to the engine. But, it seems like the OP was referring to tuning with a bar and saw chain on.
I ( used to), have two identical saws... One with a 14 inch bar, one with a 20 inch bar. Why? Because the 14 inch bar gave more power to the saw chain, in a smaller cut. The 20 inch was for stuff that needed a 20 inch bar, if that makes any sense.
So, if you're tuning a saw with a bigger bar, do you tune it differently? Do you re-tune the saw if you change the size of the bar? Or, just go by 4 stroking on the smallest ( shortest) bar that you'll use on the saw, and not worry about it if you switch to a longer bar?

Yes, my question was about tuning the carb, so the assumption was that bar and chain were on.

As for the rest, someone more experienced will hopefully chime in, but my understanding is that you should retune when any of the following change: altitude, ambient temperature, oil/gas ratio, kind of oil, kind of gas, length and type of bar/chain. I mean this is probably overdoing it; I've definitely tuned for one bar length and merrily switched out to a longer bar and no issues. But if you're alaskan milling (like I am) I think you have to be a lot more careful. Crosscutting for firewood is a lot less load, so more forgiving.

You had two identical saws with different bars? Why not just have one saw and switch out the bars?