How to take this down?

[ddhlakebound]

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying here.

"Safety" is a relative term. You're never "safe". Everything has varying degrees of risk. Each person must evaluate the level of risk that they're assuming when doing things like this.

In this person's case they've evaluated that there is a certain risk that the tree could fall on them while riding underneath it (remember, the tree crosses a trail). They've decided that the risk to themselves for cutting this tree down is worth mitigating the repetitive exposure to the risk of riding under the tree.

In this person's case, they may not be able to afford to hire a climber to take the tree down properly. People do things like this everyday and rarely do you hear of injuries. As a matter of fact, I'll bet that you think ladders are so dangerous because you only hear of the bad happenings. Whereas, you think climbing is so much safer because you're exposed to a lot of successful climbing stories if you're in the tree industry. That is what the professionals use.

Now I know what you're thinking, "The professionals climb because it's the only safe way to do it". You're wrong, the professionals climb because there is "less" risk by climbing, but it's not completely safe. The professionals can afford to outfit themselves with climbing gear and do the training because they will use it every day and it will easily pay for itself, especially because there are some jobs that ladders really are dangerous on. For somebody that doesn't cut trees for a living the climbing isn't economical. So when possibly, using a ladder with some common sense is a slightly more risky alternative. Is it completely safe? No. Is it extremely dangerous? Not if you use some common sense. In the event that your common sense tells you that using a ladder IS dangerous then hire a climber or leave it alone.

The reason ladders have a bad name while cutting is because people don't use common sense all the time. Cutting a branch off 20' up a tree certainly has a LOT more risk than 6' up a tree. The size of the branch also plays into the risk; as well as the shape of the branch, horizontal/vertical etc. In this case, if the tree-branch were 6-7' off the ground as I thought the picture looked, it isn't "loaded" in any weird way, and it's a good straight branch it should be a straight drop to the ground after cutting. It's not going to spring back past the tree. Now, being as it's 10-12' above the ground it very likely could drop in a way as to do that. There is more assumed risk cutting from a ladder at that height. (hence why I said I wouldn't recommend it at that height).

So going back to the risk thing (still assuming the branch was low); the cutter, in this case has to evaluate the level of risk that the butt will kick back as he has no other option to remove the other risk of riding under the tree. It's all a balancing act.

Is the repetitive risk of riding under the tree > the expense of hiring a climber to remove it? If so, hire a climber. If not proceed to the next.

Is the repetitive risk of riding under the tree > the risk of cutting it down by himself? If so, then cut it down.

Wasn't that simple?

BTW, if he really thought the risk was great enough that he needed to hire a climber then he wouldn't be here asking about it.

So we go back to cutting it down himself. How would you do it without heavy equipment (dozer) and without climbing gear (we'll assuming that he doesn't have any).

BTW, on pulling tops out like that, yeah, they take a lot more force than expected to pull them out but if it's really only hanging by a little bark like he said it should come down pretty easy. I've I doubt a 4 wheeler would do it just because it's not heavy enough to stay on the ground with a cable pulling up on it at an angle like that, but the op's tractor he mentioned should do quite well at it.

My uncle cuts wood for a 2nd job (has his own sawmill) and I've cut plenty of wood in my day as well. I can tell you that a top like that will come out easy as pie if he has the right equipment and knows how to pull it. I've seen it done in person hundreds of times and a lot of people no here could say the same thing.

I get what you're saying here.....You just seem to be unwilling to accept that using a ladder in the applications you're suggesting is the least safe way to go about it. It's that simple.

There are lots of non professional, free ways to go about it safer than a ladder.

Dozer (or tractor bucket) to push the whole thing while base cutting.

Cut the widow makers from the tractor bucket. Even not tied in, it's safer than the ladder. Better yet, use a motorized pole saw from the tractor bucket 8' away.

Hell, since it's only hanging by a thread, get the 12ga, and blast it off. Safer than a ladder.

Do you sell ladders or what countryboy?

If it were mine, and I couldn't get it down, I'd think outside the ladder, and offer up a day of 4-wheelin and a bbq to my new AS buddy who's willing to help out with the problem. For someone with the knowledge and gear to do it safely, it won't take but a few minutes.

What??? A (nearly) free professional solution? No way.

All that other thoughtless half assed risk accessment crap you wrote is a bunch of blathering bs.

 

[rmh3481]

Anyone around you have a pole saw that you can borrow for 15 minutes?

 

[STLfirewood]

Use a pole saw. If you don't have one go rent one. That would be the easiest and safest. Take small pieces. Might take some time and make you shoulders tired but at least you'll make it home. A ladder is only good for getting into the tree. Never good for cutting off of.

Scott

 

[Blakesmaster]

All you need to do is whittle the tips back that are touching the ground. Make sure you position yourself so that when and if the branch falls it won't fall on top of you. If you've whittled all the tips back and it's still hanging in the tree, fell the whole thing like you normally would. 5 minute job with a chainsaw. Just use your head and watch for that thing to fall.

 

[CountryBoy19]

On a more serious note:

Countryboy - The original poster stated that both sections are touching the ground. If that is the case, the the simple physics of how wood reacts dictates that as they are cut free from the stem, the "brush" at the tips will resist being pushed away from the stem (it would be like folding a spring backwards). They WILL push back toward the stem. It's a matter of how much. Will it knock the ladder away? Maybe... Maybe not... Is there a high probability of Darwinism in action? Definitely!

Those of us that do this type work on a regular basis know how to recognize the risk you talk about. This is a classic "hey y'all watch this" moment. There is no reason to be on a ladder cutting this. There is nothing stable above the ladder that you could safely tie into (just in case the ladder fell).

There are a lot of ways this could be handled. A ladder is in no way an even remotely safe alternative.

Please consider your experience level as a "qualified instructor", the experience level of the "student", your ability to clearly communicate that experience and safely transfer your vast knowledge of the situation to the "student" prior to having him embark on a potentially life threatening exercise.

To use your thought process in a previous post:

See the tag line quote on my signature?

"Read that very slowly... repeat, read it very slowly until you understand what it means... repeat again for good measure."

I understand the physics behind it. If the branch is hanging down at an angle then certainly it is going to kick back towards the tree. But a branch that is horizontal (the one pictured on the left is nearly horizontal) and only 6 feet off the ground (as I had originally thought) can only spring back a couple inches at most, unless the branches are loaded in some weird way. Hence the mention of checking it all out thoroughly to be sure.


I still stand by my position that a ladder can safely be used to do tree work as long as it's near the ground and you use some common sense.


All you guys suggesting doing this with a tractor or climber... what? do you sell tractors or climbing gear? Or do you just hire yourself out as a climber?

 

[TreePointer]

All you need to do is whittle the tips back that are touching the ground. Make sure you position yourself so that when and if the branch falls it won't fall on top of you. If you've whittled all the tips back and it's still hanging in the tree, fell the whole thing like you normally would. 5 minute job with a chainsaw. Just use your head and watch for that thing to fall.

:agree2:

That's what I was trying to write. Not all trees are a good candidate for this, but I've successfully used this method on more than one broken tree and was happy with how things went. The "use your head" part was most important.

 

[2FatGuys]

I understand the physics behind it. If the branch is hanging down at an angle then certainly it is going to kick back towards the tree. But a branch that is horizontal (the one pictured on the left is nearly horizontal) and only 6 feet off the ground (as I had originally thought) can only spring back a couple inches at most, unless the branches are loaded in some weird way. Hence the mention of checking it all out thoroughly to be sure.?

The fact that you thought it was only 6 feet off the ground indicates your lack of familiarity with "tree work". Look at the size of the leaves and twigs below the broken off leader. Look at the diameter of the stem below the split. Now using the leaves, apply some common sense and you will come up with a fair approximation of stem diameter. Now try to fathom how a proportionally correct stem could be that diameter only 6 feet off the ground.

I'm just saying....

I still stand by my position that a ladder can safely be used to do tree work as long as it's near the ground and you use some common sense.?

I'm sure some of the other "real" tree guys on here have used ladders. I know I have. But that is in very specific situations and under much more controlled conditions. I typically don't even have a ladder on the truck when I go do a job. You can stand by your uninformed and inexperienced position as long as you like. The fact is, in this case, ladder use and common sense are mutually exclusive of each other.

All you guys suggesting doing this with a tractor or climber... what? do you sell tractors or climbing gear? Or do you just hire yourself out as a climber?

I've not suggested using brute force (tractor or ATV) to remove anything. The use of force usually results in that old "equal and opposite reaction" principle. I'm just not a fan of dodging flailing ropes with wood attached. I subscribe to the theory that the safest way to remove hazard wood is through careful, well thought, specific movements and actions.

I think the most critical comments have come from guys who have many many years of experience protecting our own safety and the safety of our coworkers.

None of us can control how the original poster does this removal, but we can hopefully influence the "common sense" that he applies to his problem.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

If you don't have anything useful to say then leave the thread.

Pointing out that you gave very dangerous advice IS useful.



And yes, he HE is an expert.

 

[olyman]

If you don't have anything useful to say then leave the thread. Personal insults aren't necessary.

So you don't think it would be right to pull the right half down if it's only hanging by a little bark? Just what should he do then Mr. Expert?

Also, it appears to me that the left half is only about 6-7' off the ground but I know pics can be misleading (that is why I asked). Are you saying that it would be unsafe to use a ladder properly positioned on the opposite side of the tree to cut the left half down? Once again, what would you propose Mr. Expert?

he wont leave--hes the expert on any and everything--just ask him---

 

[olyman]

Yeah, you'll have to excuse TreeCo. He's a bitter, crusty old fart that would rather criticize and belittle people than help them with his considerable and respectable knowledge. He's the kind of guy that people are always happy to see leave the party early.

and forever--

 

[banshee67]

"how to take this down"

cut it till it falls over:greenchainsaw:

 

[4seasons]

All you need to do is whittle the tips back that are touching the ground. Make sure you position yourself so that when and if the branch falls it won't fall on top of you. If you've whittled all the tips back and it's still hanging in the tree, fell the whole thing like you normally would. 5 minute job with a chainsaw. Just use your head and watch for that thing to fall.

Used this method myself many times on similar situations. If it was right on the trail I might try throwing a tree saver strap around in and use a winch cable and my Toyota to give it a tug so see if it would pull loose easily.

The other option is to get a ladder and handle a chainsaw with one hand while leaning around the tree holding the tree with one hand and using your foot to push on the limb that you are cutting. Just make sure your wife knows how to log on to this site so she can put your obituary in the injury and fatality section. I mean really how stupid do you have to be to suggest leaning around a tree on a ladder with a chainsaw?

 

[Another Bucker]

I came across this elm yesterday while cutting. The right section is right over the atv trail and is hanging literally by the bark and a few strands of wood. Both sections are touching the ground in each direction so I was thinking of cutting what I can reach of them ( I should be able to get most of the left side) and then going for the main stem? I didn't touch it yesterday because I was by myself but would like to get it down so it doesn't konk me or one of my friends on the head when we go under it? How would you go about it?

I would just rope the top hanger and give it a yank from a safe distance, doesnt look it would take much, then fall the rest of the snag... i miss something here?

 

[JJuday]

Re-route the ATV traffic out around the tree and wait till it comes down on it's own. If it's not an immediate threat to life, limb or property and you don't need the wood that bad, leave it. Limbs can still come back on dozers and /or through the cage. But that's just my 2 cents, not glamerous or dangers, but you'd still be fit to cut latter. JJuday

 

[oldirty]

anyone who recommends doing anything tree related with a ladder is a complete idiot. i don't care what your pappy or good ol' uncle taught you.

a moron. thats it. the only title you deserve.

unreal.

 

[RVALUE]

These are all secondary measures. First determine if it is safe enough to cut down normally.

If not, then try to pull it to somewhere from a safe position.


*** I posted this without reading the entire thread. MY apologies to some of the posters. I will stand by my advice as well as second some others later in the thread.***

 

[CountryBoy19]

The fact that you thought it was only 6 feet off the ground indicates your lack of familiarity with "tree work". Look at the size of the leaves and twigs below the broken off leader. Look at the diameter of the stem below the split. Now using the leaves, apply some common sense and you will come up with a fair approximation of stem diameter. Now try to fathom how a proportionally correct stem could be that diameter only 6 feet off the ground.

I'm just saying....

The fact that you just said that indicates your lack of vision and depth perception.

A couple points here:

#1 the leaves are in the foreground, how you could mistake them for being on that tree??

#2 I don't understand the point that you're making. Proportionally correct diameter at 6'? What does the diameter have to do with it? The diameter of a tree gets larger as it grows. So if you walk through the woods you could find could find trees of all different diameters. Are you saying that trees can't grow to that diameter at 6'? Just what diameter do you think it is? I've seen photos of trees with a diameter over 20 feet, and I've personally seen trees with a diameter of 0.1".

 

[Iska3]

On a more serious note:

Countryboy - The original poster stated that both sections are touching the ground. If that is the case, the the simple physics of how wood reacts dictates that as they are cut free from the stem, the "brush" at the tips will resist being pushed away from the stem (it would be like folding a spring backwards). They WILL push back toward the stem. It's a matter of how much. Will it knock the ladder away? Maybe... Maybe not... Is there a high probability of Darwinism in action? Definitely!

Those of us that do this type work on a regular basis know how to recognize the risk you talk about. This is a classic "hey y'all watch this" moment. There is no reason to be on a ladder cutting this. There is nothing stable above the ladder that you could safely tie into (just in case the ladder fell).

There are a lot of ways this could be handled. A ladder is in no way an even remotely safe alternative.

Please consider your experience level as a "qualified instructor", the experience level of the "student", your ability to clearly communicate that experience and safely transfer your vast knowledge of the situation to the "student" prior to having him embark on a potentially life threatening exercise.

To use your thought process in a previous post:

See the tag line quote on my signature?

"Read that very slowly... repeat, read it very slowly until you understand what it means... repeat again for good measure."

:agree2:

 

[4seasons]

While the size and height of this tree is hard to tell from this picture, it is apparent that is is big enough to knock you off a ladder. The only use for a ladder in this situation would be to get high enough to tie a rope to it, and I wouldn't want to do that as just banging a ladder into the truck might be enough to dislodge the snag and send it your way. The simple fact is anyone that says:

Then go up the ladder, reaching around the tree (this is where a small/light saw helps a lot) and cut it down.

Should not be giving advise on how to do tree work.

Ladders + Chainsaws + People stupid enough to combine the two = Trip to the ER or morgue.

 

[getwood]

Have you cut it down yet? I would cut what I could reach (don’t cut them to short) and then use a come-along and a log chain/rope and try pulling the branches down.