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$78 buck an hour to work on an assembly line, and people wonder why they can't break even?

That is a red herring.

The $78/hr is TOTAL payroll COST divided by total wage earner hours worked. This includes the the cost or retiree benefits too. It id NOT the cost of the individual line worker with seniority.

Not to defend the UAW, they have some benefits that are crazy, like full pay during layoffs???

I just want the arguments to be about apples to apples. Nobody talks about upper management cost/day either.

But he's not the sharpest tack in the drawer. He's absolutely FINE for the job.

Which is stupid of the bossman. Simple men for simple jobs is the best overall, because they will not have wandering minds.
 
$78 buck an hour...

That is a red herring.

Ayup.

The past few months aside (just another in series of historical financial panics/recessions/depressions that occur every 10 years or so in our history), American manufacturing is pretty healthy.

We've been growing at about 1% per year for decades. For all the hand wringing about how our industrial base is declining and what if there is another world war, we produce more steel in the country in 2007 then in WWII or even the 1960s. We can make 40% more steel today then in 1945.

That doesn't mean there haven't been changes -- despite the significant growth of domestic steel, our imports have also grown from neglible to about 40% of the current market. So we make more AND we import more.

However, while our output has been growing at 1%, our productivity has been improving since the Reagan era at 3% per year. That's not to say Reagan's policies were solely or even predominantly responsible -- you can thank Silicon Valley for those gains. Computer driven automation has fundamentally changed our need for workers.

To cite a local example, Electric Boat is still a major employer in my area, but it is only a fraction of the size it used to be. If Ronald Reagan rose from the grave and declared his intent to build a 600 ship navy once again...EB will never employ more then half the workers they did back in the 1980s. One of my friends used to work as a draftsmen -- that job is gone, replaced largely by computers. Takes only a fraction of the draftsmen today with Computer Aided Design then it did in the days of pen and ink drawings. In another case, EB developed robots that could make welds using stronger electrical arcs then a human could possibly hold -- once they perfected the technology, the Navy increased the spec's on the sub hulls so the quality of welds called for today CAN NOT be made by a human. That's hundreds of high paying, high skill welding jobs that will never, ever return no matter what.

When you're output is growing 1% per year, but it takes you 3% fewer man-hours to produce each unit of output per year...you need to layoff 2% of your workers per year unless you're protected from competitors. Now you take those numbers of needing to layoff 2% per year, and you extend it to a nearly 30 year long streak like we've had with those statistics you get what we have today. It's not China or Mexico stealing American jobs, computers are eliminating them.

People's perception of manufacturing decline are true from a personal perspective -- the jobs are disappearing, but from a big picture perpspective, American industry has been expanding as the jobs disappeared.

This all comes back to that $78 per hour labor cost. If the Big 3 were carrying the same retiree obligations over workforces twice their current size, you're probably talking labor costs more like $50/hour. But instead they're carrying an awful lot of retirees on very few employees because automation allowed them to (eventually) lay off people...so the per hour cost of carrying those old benefits which they had not put money away decades ago to cover goes up.

It's not to hold unions harmless. They've been guilty of the very same bad practices of going after short term gains at the cost of long term stability that the executives have rightfully been accused of.

Starting, I believe, with the 1987 UAW agreements, they had a "Job Bank" system which said the employers could not lay someone off because of:
-- Efficiency improvements due to automation
-- Outsourcing
-- Efficiency improvements in workflow developed by the company

If someone's job was eliminated for one of those reasons, then the Big 3 would continue paying them full salary and benefits for years to do nothing until a there was a job open for them, they would've been laid off anyway due to declining market share, or a new contract was signed which let the company lay them off. Outsourcing I can see the unions legitimately fighting; but saying you can't lay someone off because you've become more efficient?

So even where you had the Big 3 investing in newer, more efficient plants they couldn't see the cost saving from that right away -- they had to continue paying the workers as if they had never invested in the robots, or simply figured out a more efficient way to work. I really wouldn't doubt that over 20+ years that cost the companies more then $35 Billion that could've been spent in more investments, research, product development, put in the bank, or paid in dividends. The UAW "Jobs Banks" meant there was no way the Big 3 could ever match the efficiency of foreign auto companies building new plants in the U.S. -- they were always at a disadvantage. But management of the Big 3 didn't want the strikes, so we get 20 years on into those contracts and the chickens have come home to roost for both sides.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if it took 78 bucks an hour to put a man on the feild with a saw in his hand just as well. If fact isn't that what it takes? Something like that?
 
I wouldn't be surprised if it took 78 bucks an hour to put a man on the feild with a saw in his hand just as well. If fact isn't that what it takes? Something like that?

The truth is 100 ph is near acceptable if highly skilled professional.
I don't see why someone that truly is well versed in a skill is not worth
78 ph! I think the cuts should be made in the management sector. I see
no reason to pay the crooks running these corporations the millions
they steal from the employees or company and shareholders.
I also feel the employee system set up wrong it should be set up
on incentive wage system if they can safely produce without damaging
stuff they get$. Set the wage their selves by productivity keeping the
reason for lazy water jug gatherers out of the way. It would reward the
ones pulling the weight instead of the b buddies and nephews and cousin
of the done away with CEO! If it were setup this way a boss would not
have much to do as the men would take care of the ones not pulling
weight!
 
The truth is 100 ph is near acceptable if highly skilled professional.
I don't see why someone that truly is well versed in a skill is not worth
78 ph! I think the cuts should be made in the management sector. I see
no reason to pay the crooks running these corporations the millions
they steal from the employees or company and shareholders.
I also feel the employee system set up wrong it should be set up
on incentive wage system if they can safely produce without damaging
stuff they get$. Set the wage their selves by productivity keeping the
reason for lazy water jug gatherers out of the way. It would reward the
ones pulling the weight instead of the b buddies and nephews and cousin
of the done away with CEO! If it were setup this way a boss would not
have much to do as the men would take care of the ones not pulling
weight!

I think the white collar world has gotten ludicrous with what they expect for wages. Same with blue but not in the same way. Which is why when people ask me " how's business?" I say " It sucks, why do you ask?" I kinda apply that to any business.
Its good to do a job like you and I work ( and we are quite simular) and have it pan out well. I wouldn't expect to be able to hire people and have it come out the same way. I knew what it would entail to run a business like most people want to model their business after which is what is normal for business. On paper you could sell it... but I am no salesman.
 
I think the white collar world has gotten ludicrous with what they expect for wages. Same with blue but not in the same way. Which is why when people ask me " how's business?" I say " It sucks, why do you ask?" I kinda apply that to any business.
Its good to do a job like you and I work ( and we are quite simular) and have it pan out well. I wouldn't expect to be able to hire people and have it come out the same way. I knew what it would entail to run a business like most people want to model their business after which is what is normal for business. On paper you could sell it... but I am no salesman.
I beg to differ you are in fact a salesman if you go out on bids!
I understand what your saying though I think. I sometimes wish
I could sell shares like a million for a dollar a share and effectively
compete but the problem is once you go down that road you can't
come back and it will get harder and harder to remain honest in all
your affairs! :cheers:
 
Mabe there should be a - salary cap- w/ regards to CEO pay. Would "The President of The U.S. current salary of $400,000 be realistic?" Tough economic times call for evaluating & instituting new practices! Certainly a liberal offering in tough times !:buttkick:
 
I beg to differ you are in fact a salesman if you go out on bids!
I understand what your saying though I think. I sometimes wish
I could sell shares like a million for a dollar a share and effectively
compete but the problem is once you go down that road you can't
come back and it will get harder and harder to remain honest in all
your affairs! :cheers:

Well, a salesman does a lot of work to prepare for selling. I just show up in dirty clothes covered in saw dust and tell them how I see it.
I made a portfolio with which to show prospective clients and showed it to a few friends and aquaintices first. Pics with captions it was. They all said " It must be nice to not to care that people think you are a nut case". I replied" I kinda thought that was an indication of sucess."
One guy wanted to see who was the better tree salesman, me or him. I laughed and gave it up to him. I don't sell nothing, I offer a service, if you want to buy it then go ahead. It is truly my goal not to even look like I might want to sell you something... cause I don't.
Besides, I am not really going to be advertising much anymore. I have a client list growing on referrals and lots of guys want me to work for them climbing. I am looking to make a niche for the future only doing shrubs and bushes and using the Dingo for stuff.
I think the fact that people need a salesman to sell them something is an indication of how pathetic we WANT to be.
I can spend a lot of time talking with people about things but I never push the "sale".
 
Mabe there should be a - salary cap- w/ regards to CEO pay. Would "The President of The U.S. current salary of $400,000 be realistic?" Tough economic times call for evaluating & instituting new practices! Certainly a liberal offering in tough times !:buttkick:

% employees Ceo and everyone work off percentage
Ceo not to make more than 5% better than his highest paid employee!
Now he will have to better the work force as well as the employees
will have to better their production but everyone gets to dream!
 
Well, a salesman does a lot of work to prepare for selling. I just show up in dirty clothes covered in saw dust and tell them how I see it.
I made a portfolio with which to show prospective clients and showed it to a few friends and aquaintices first. Pics with captions it was. They all said " It must be nice to not to care that people think you are a nut case". I replied" I kinda thought that was an indication of sucess."
One guy wanted to see who was the better tree salesman, me or him. I laughed and gave it up to him. I don't sell nothing, I offer a service, if you want to buy it then go ahead. It is truly my goal not to even look like I might want to sell you something... cause I don't.
Besides, I am not really going to be advertising much anymore. I have a client list growing on referrals and lots of guys want me to work for them climbing. I am looking to make a niche for the future only doing shrubs and bushes and using the Dingo for stuff.
I think the fact that people need a salesman to sell them something is an indication of how pathetic we WANT to be.
I can spend a lot of time talking with people about things but I never push the "sale".

That is a true salesman the days of the pushy salesman are
over. I am very similar in that I provide a service but in times
of needing to make the bills and customers price shopping,
it boils down to your impression when you are the high bidder!
I have had some that call and I know the outcome, so I give them
a ball park best and worst case scenario over the phone to save
my fuel! Had one guy say, I can get it done way cheaper than your
low figure and I said get your illegals to do it then:monkey:
 
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:confused:


:dizzy:


Uh, this wasn't exactly subtle! How could you NOT see this was sarcasm?


I did!! & laughed like hell....can you imagine being a HO & seeing this kinda display in your front yard? not to mention the threads busting on young people not wanting to work, they read this & we wonder why they are the way they are!!

I find it funny!! but seriously there are some who think/do this im sure!!

LXT............
 
Rope: allow me to respectfully disagree ! CEO's are responsible 7-24 .
They answer to a "Board of Directors" & serve at their discretion! Their decisions account for engineering, production, marketing, employee job security & corporate profitability!
Hourly employees are compensated by job requirements & hours worked !
All things considered; simply sit down & list your duties vs. your employees!
Then multiply those duties a thousand- fold ! Sorry, but no comparison !:dizzy:
 
Just ask the Big Three in Detroit.

Oh, and ask their laid-off workers, too.

$78 buck an hour to work on an assembly line, and people wonder why they can't break even?


Yeah, I know, they have management problems TOO, but just look at the number for these companies, or many others that are now bankrupt.

Geese and golden eggs.


Is that considered total pay including benefits, etc? Because anyone who thinks this is what they get for an hourly wage plus benefits needs to get their head out of their behind and take a real look. Yes they do get paid a large amount that is completely over what an assembly line worker should make. However it is nowhere near $78 hr. For the short period I worked for GM I only made $25 hr and that was working as a millwright fixing the machinery in the plant. Now if you add all the benefits together you get up there but still nowhere near $78 hr.
 
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It's their "labor cost" per hour including un/under-funded obligations for pension and healthcare benefits earned by retirees.

GM's Pension Fund had $101 Billion in it in 2007. I can only imagine how much they've lost in that in the past year. If the fund isn't generating enough interest to cover their obligations, they either have to spend principle or they have to chip in money from their current earnings.
 
Back on topic, I think you did the right thing. How could you ever depend on someone like this. She sounds like the help I had with all of the excuses. I don't know what is going to happen but what I think is going to happen is, in a few years if you are still in business and still have work you will be able to get some very good help. There are alot of people making way more money than they are worth . I don't think people understand that there is no guarantee that your life will be good, that you will have all the nice things in life simply because you are breathing. It hasn't been very long at all since people worked to survive, to heat the house and eat, back then anything else was a luxury. Not everyone is going to make 100k a year it boils down in the end to what you are actually worth to someone else not what you think you are worth. With the economy we had people got arrogant and thought they deserved it all simply because they are alive. Get ready folks it ain't gonna be fun for many.
 
I hired a replacement !

One of my recently hired workers brought his wife in as a replacement...Uh oh. I anticipate problems. He's a great guy, they claim they never argue. She seems bright enough to learn. A short interview later, I hired her on a trial basis.

She took college courses, but didn't finish. Many tempting courses that should be a big help in business, but she doesn't seem to have learned much while there. She has surprised me with how little business experience she has, and seems clueless on many items that I consider High School stuff. Maybe I just don't remember how little I knew when I was young.

On the bright side: Even though I need to explain everything, so far I don't need to explain too much or too long, and she has already figured out some things that her predecessor took weeks to figure out. There are no early signs of moodiness, or any big character flaws.

This looks like it will work out. I would rather be able to tell her everything just once, rather than repeat some things over, and over, and over...
 
One of my recently hired workers brought his wife in as a replacement...Uh oh. I anticipate problems. He's a great guy, they claim they never argue. She seems bright enough to learn. A short interview later, I hired her on a trial basis.

She took college courses, but didn't finish. Many tempting courses that should be a big help in business, but she doesn't seem to have learned much while there. She has surprised me with how little business experience she has, and seems clueless on many items that I consider High School stuff. Maybe I just don't remember how little I knew when I was young.

On the bright side: Even though I need to explain everything, so far I don't need to explain too much or too long, and she has already figured out some things that her predecessor took weeks to figure out. There are no early signs of moodiness, or any big character flaws.

This looks like it will work out. I would rather be able to tell her everything just once, rather than repeat some things over, and over, and over...

Shouldn't you be in bed instead of posting in the middle of the night? ;)

Good for you...hope it works out.

Nothing worse than repeating things over and over....
 
Hope it works out too!

Sometimes as business owners we have to take what we can get just to get by.

It has been very hard for me to act like a "Boss" but when I do, everything seems to work much more smoothly.

I don't have to resort to rake banging, saw chasing or much yelling. I find the following phrases get the point across fairly well:

"What you did/are doing is unacceptable and will not happen again"

"I understand that what you just did seemed like a fun/harmless thing to do. However, if you do it again you will not be invited back."

Bottom line is I try to let my people know that they are on the team by invitation, and if they choose to get out of line that invitation will cease.

Employment is a quid-pro-quo, I need them as much as they need me. But since it is my party it will have to be on my standards.

Older workers aren't much of a problem...they have a different/traditional work ethic. Kids (under 25) are a different matter. I haven't fully figured them out yet, but the invitation concept seems to work.

Merry Christmas to those who celebrate the birth of the Messiah,
Happy Hannukka to those who celebrate the festival of lights &
Short Solstice to those that celebrate the coming spring.
 
Rope: allow me to respectfully disagree ! CEO's are responsible 7-24 .
They answer to a "Board of Directors" & serve at their discretion! Their decisions account for engineering, production, marketing, employee job security & corporate profitability!
Hourly employees are compensated by job requirements & hours worked !
All things considered; simply sit down & list your duties vs. your employees!
Then multiply those duties a thousand- fold ! Sorry, but no comparison !:dizzy:

I understand where your coming from as I am a ceo in a way.
However if they were truly responsible 24-7 would we be bailing
them out? Responsibility is just that if your screwing the company
up then you should be held accountable. I called the sba and asked
for my bailout and was told they don't bailout ultra small business
so they are in fact discriminating imo! The small business in direct
competition with persons here unlawfully creating a low standard
of living that our elected officials are responsible for; are the ones
that truly need and deserve a bailout. I am trying to figure out
how to file charges on them for not upholding the laws of our
nation and misrepresenting the public which is;tyranny.
 
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