Ignition coil stops sparking when hot

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So it’s well known that often when a saw gets hot and stops sparking is coil related for the electronic ignition coils and generally the condenser in points ignition.
My question is, what is it inside the electronic ignition coils that fails?
Foggysale said the 056 ignition module has an internal capacitor that fails, but newer coils like found on the 260’s are far too small to have any form of internal condenser! Thanks in advance guys.
 
You have 3 coils as far as I know. Primary, secondary, and trigger. Any of the 3 have issues, no sparky. Then you have the internal circuitry a transistor which can also fail. (This is really basic understanding of a magneto) now add circuitry for spark advance and whatever other tidbits you want the coil to do and you have failure points all over.
 
You have 3 coils as far as I know. Primary, secondary, and trigger. Any of the 3 have issues, no sparky. Then you have the internal circuitry a transistor which can also fail. (This is really basic understanding of a magneto) now add circuitry for spark advance and whatever other tidbits you want the coil to do and you have failure points all over.
Thanks Sean! I appreciate the input. I’m curious to take one apart, but I imagine doing so to be incredibly difficult non destructively. Hmm watch this space
 
It's almost never a failure of the coil windings. The usual culprits are the semiconductors that control the firing of the primary. Heat is the enemy of semiconductors and the ignition module on a chainsaw is in a hostile heat environment, some are mounted right on the cylinder (really stupid) and others get packed in with gooey sawdust that insulates them from the cooling air off the flywheel. The worst time for the module is right after the engine is shut off after being run hot, the residual heat soaks into the module and no air to cool it, this is why there is a lot of advice to let the saw idle for a few minutes after serious cutting, to let it cool down a little. There are many grades of semiconductor quality in terms of heat resistance, military spec semiconductors are available to withstand extreme heat but they are very expensive so we will never see them on a chainsaw. The secondary of the coil transformer can become damaged if the engine is pulled over fast with the plug lead off and the ignition on, normally during a spark event, the voltage spike to fire the plug will rise until the plug fires and then will go no higher, but if there is no path to ground for the voltage spike it will rise to the maximum the coil can produce and that might be high enough to break down the very thin insulation on the wire in the secondary and could eventually lead to a trace path to ground and a dead coil. Taking these things apart is a waste of time, if a hacksaw is used nothing can be found that is recognizable and the few solvents that would dissolve the epoxy are so toxic you wouldn't want to use them if you could find them.
 
It's almost never a failure of the coil windings. The usual culprits are the semiconductors that control the firing of the primary. Heat is the enemy of semiconductors and the ignition module on a chainsaw is in a hostile heat environment, some are mounted right on the cylinder (really stupid) and others get packed in with gooey sawdust that insulates them from the cooling air off the flywheel. The worst time for the module is right after the engine is shut off after being run hot, the residual heat soaks into the module and no air to cool it, this is why there is a lot of advice to let the saw idle for a few minutes after serious cutting, to let it cool down a little. There are many grades of semiconductor quality in terms of heat resistance, military spec semiconductors are available to withstand extreme heat but they are very expensive so we will never see them on a chainsaw. The secondary of the coil transformer can become damaged if the engine is pulled over fast with the plug lead off and the ignition on, normally during a spark event, the voltage spike to fire the plug will rise until the plug fires and then will go no higher, but if there is no path to ground for the voltage spike it will rise to the maximum the coil can produce and that might be high enough to break down the very thin insulation on the wire in the secondary and could eventually lead to a trace path to ground and a dead coil. Taking these things apart is a waste of time, if a hacksaw is used nothing can be found that is recognizable and the few solvents that would dissolve the epoxy are so toxic you wouldn't want to use them if you could find them.
Great info mate thank you very much!!
 
It's almost never a failure of the coil windings. The usual culprits are the semiconductors that control the firing of the primary. Heat is the enemy of semiconductors and the ignition module on a chainsaw is in a hostile heat environment, some are mounted right on the cylinder (really stupid) and others get packed in with gooey sawdust that insulates them from the cooling air off the flywheel. The worst time for the module is right after the engine is shut off after being run hot, the residual heat soaks into the module and no air to cool it, this is why there is a lot of advice to let the saw idle for a few minutes after serious cutting, to let it cool down a little. There are many grades of semiconductor quality in terms of heat resistance, military spec semiconductors are available to withstand extreme heat but they are very expensive so we will never see them on a chainsaw. The secondary of the coil transformer can become damaged if the engine is pulled over fast with the plug lead off and the ignition on, normally during a spark event, the voltage spike to fire the plug will rise until the plug fires and then will go no higher, but if there is no path to ground for the voltage spike it will rise to the maximum the coil can produce and that might be high enough to break down the very thin insulation on the wire in the secondary and could eventually lead to a trace path to ground and a dead coil. Taking these things apart is a waste of time, if a hacksaw is used nothing can be found that is recognizable and the few solvents that would dissolve the epoxy are so toxic you wouldn't want to use them if you could find them.
I learnt something today, thanks heaps
 
It's almost never a failure of the coil windings. The usual culprits are the semiconductors that control the firing of the primary. Heat is the enemy of semiconductors and the ignition module on a chainsaw is in a hostile heat environment, some are mounted right on the cylinder (really stupid) and others get packed in with gooey sawdust that insulates them from the cooling air off the flywheel. The worst time for the module is right after the engine is shut off after being run hot, the residual heat soaks into the module and no air to cool it, this is why there is a lot of advice to let the saw idle for a few minutes after serious cutting, to let it cool down a little. There are many grades of semiconductor quality in terms of heat resistance, military spec semiconductors are available to withstand extreme heat but they are very expensive so we will never see them on a chainsaw. The secondary of the coil transformer can become damaged if the engine is pulled over fast with the plug lead off and the ignition on, normally during a spark event, the voltage spike to fire the plug will rise until the plug fires and then will go no higher, but if there is no path to ground for the voltage spike it will rise to the maximum the coil can produce and that might be high enough to break down the very thin insulation on the wire in the secondary and could eventually lead to a trace path to ground and a dead coil. Taking these things apart is a waste of time, if a hacksaw is used nothing can be found that is recognizable and the few solvents that would dissolve the epoxy are so toxic you wouldn't want to use them if you could find them.
Pipped me to the post... I would've said pretty much exactly the same thing (although probably not as well).
One thing I will add is that it's not just heat that's the problem as much as heat cycling causing expansion & contraction stresses on solder joints & internal connections within electronic components
 
You don't need the fancy electronic stuff inside a coil to have it start to go bad when it gets hot. Car/tractor/truck coils w/point ignitions been doing that for a hundred years now. Insulation between the primary and secondary windings starts to break down and go bad. "Wet" coils the oil inside started to break down or leak out.

I have a 1940 9N Ford tractor that started dying about 5 years ago when worked hard in hot weather, usually using a rotary cutter. I'd plow snow in the winter and not a problem. Last summer it got to the point where I couldn't run the rotary cutter much longer than 15 minutes.

I went through the distributor too when I replaced the coil. These flat head 4-cyl had the distributor mounted on the front of the motor. PITA to work on so just remove the whole coil/dist assy.

It was hard to source a good quality coil. I looked at couple of Chi-Com ones and they were all junk, ill fitting and one even had the top cover loose.

Same with rest of dist components. I was lucky that I'd bought a bunch of those 35 years ago when you could still get OEM/USA made stuff.

edit: WORST coil was the TSC one , with the loose top.

Only buy name brand fluids, CHEAP fasteners you don't care if they break, and throw away chi-com stuff from tcs
 
You don't need the fancy electronic stuff inside a coil to have it start to go bad when it gets hot. Car/tractor/truck coils w/point ignitions been doing that for a hundred years now. Insulation between the primary and secondary windings starts to break down and go bad. "Wet" coils the oil inside started to break down or leak out.

I have a 1940 9N Ford tractor that started dying about 5 years ago when worked hard in hot weather, usually using a rotary cutter. I'd plow snow in the winter and not a problem. Last summer it got to the point where I couldn't run the rotary cutter much longer than 15 minutes.

I went through the distributor too when I replaced the coil. These flat head 4-cyl had the distributor mounted on the front of the motor. PITA to work on so just remove the whole coil/dist assy.

It was hard to source a good quality coil. I looked at couple of Chi-Com ones and they were all junk, ill fitting and one even had the top cover loose.

Same with rest of dist components. I was lucky that I'd bought a bunch of those 35 years ago when you could still get OEM/USA made stuff.
That’s really good to know. I knew that if the insulation breaks down you’ll get issues, but I presumed these would show themselves at cold and hot. I never figured coils with points could stop spark if they got warm and spark would return when cool that could be related to the windings. Another piece of info to add to my knowledge bank!
 
Yeah like MadProfessor said even the old tech coils from a point ignition go bad. Just recently I had one with a broken or loose wire in the secondary coil. There was no continuity in the secondary coil (measuring from the plug wire cap to the wire that comes from the points). The magically it had continuity and was able to run in a saw briefly, and then was dead again.
 
Pipped me to the post... I would've said pretty much exactly the same thing (although probably not as well).
One thing I will add is that it's not just heat that's the problem as much as heat cycling causing expansion & contraction stresses on solder joints & internal connections within electronic components
Yep, when semiconductors fail, it is usually because the microscopic wires that are "welded" to the tiny speck of semiconductor material have come loose or have had the resistance of the joint change. Gives a frustrating lack of predictability as to time-of-failure. Many important devices will be subjected to a burn-in time before being placed in service as most failures will occur very early. I don't believe chainsaw modules are tested before installation, probably just a percentage of the production line are pulled out and tested, or if built in China, not at all.
 
On the subject of coils - I have had about 4 of the black oem coils fail on 372 & 390 saws in the last couple of months, question is do they have the ability to advance a retard the timing according to rpm, it almost seems like that, - one limiting out about half the rpm under load another not wanting to idle under about 2500 etc., change out the coil in most cases to a blue 13000 and they run fine after that.
 
Not familiar with those particular coils but that is one of the advantages of the modern ignition module, you can set the basic static timing for as much advance as you want for good high rpm power and due to the electronic circuitry, the spark can be delayed from this set point to give easier low rpm starting without kickback. With limiting coils, the circuitry is just arranged to cause misfiring after a specific rpm.
 
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