Inside the 372XP X-TORQ

[indiansprings]

If a person is doing saw modding as a business, not a hobbyist there would be no greater marketing tool and credibility builder than using a dyno to post before mod data and then after mod data. It would give irrefutable proof as to the gains that can be made by porting. It would eliminate the subjective testing such as timed cuts, etc.

Whomever is doing the porting (I could care less who the builder is) just has the personal decision if it makes business sense on whether or not that the expense if justified. I would think if you were going to do it as a business that it would not only show people that the results are tangible that they are also repeatable, that if you do X saw and it shows a gain of X hp, that you could do another saw of the same make and model and have results that are extremely close to the first one.

It's just a hard call to decide if it would amoritize out on the volume of saws that a builder does. I would would pay 30 -50 more dollars for a before and
after dyno test. You have to think of it being a long term investment.
If a person mods 100 saws a year it would pay off very quickly, even 50 saws a year would show a return on the investment within a reasonable amount of time.

If doing it as a business it would be a real marketing tool, when a new model comes out that looks like it will be popular like the new Husky 562 to buy one the minute it hits the market and show the before and after gains, it would prolly drum up alot of business for that particular model. It's not like you would be out any money as if there is any gains at all their would be a buyer.

The irrefutable validation of port work through dyno testing would be worth the money spent in my point of view if one is doing it as a business and is planning on staying in the business for a few years, if I'm just grinding for myself or a few buddies then it's a whole different story. It damn sure would eliminate a lot of headaches as a builder.

 

[blsnelling]

What a bunch of pathetic whining and moaning. Weimedog, you need to get one thing straight, because I keep reading it again and again. I don't ever post anything for marketing purposes! This is a hobby, I'm an extravert, and I love to share my work with other crazy saw nuts. Plain and simple. The only reason I got into porting other peoples saws, is because the people kept asking for it. And for another thing, I don't need this business. All it does is support my hobby, something I don't need. Oh, and you hoped I would get creative and start this R&D you speak of? Do you have any clue what you're saying? Have you seen the attacks I've received for what little testing I've tried to do? It was a bismal failure. Repeatable testing takes more than I'm willing to invest. You have no idea how much time was involved in generating that flawed data! I'm not even remotely interested in going farther with that. Matter of fact, you'll see less rather than more. And Woodchucker, I'm not suggesting you're jealous of me. You have no reason to be. But if you go back and read your post, reading it as from the outside looking in, it simiply reads as nothing but suggesting that this saw is not what it's claimed to be.

Weimedog, I will not get into a childish battle with you here. I've stated some facts above to answer some of your erroneous claims, and that's all I intend to do. If you want to see R&D in chainsaw developement, go start a company and do it yourself. I will not be doing that. This is a hobby, and that would be too much work that wouldn't be fun. I'd rather quit porting anyone elses saws and simply enjoy them.

 

[blsnelling]

If a person is doing saw modding as a business, not a hobbyist there would be no greater marketing tool and credibility builder than using a dyno to post before mod data and then after mod data. It would give irrefutable proof as to the gains that can be made by porting. It would eliminate the subjective testing such as timed cuts, etc.

Whomever is doing the porting (I could care less who the builder is) just has the personal decision if it makes business sense on whether or not that the expense if justified. I would think if you were going to do it as a business that it would not only show people that the results are tangible that they are also repeatable, that if you do X saw and it shows a gain of X hp, that you could do another saw of the same make and model and have results that are extremely close to the first one.

It's just a hard call to decide if it would amoritize out on the volume of saws that a builder does. I would would pay 30 -50 more dollars for a before and
after dyno test. You have to think of it being a long term investment.
If a person mods 100 saws a year it would pay off very quickly, even 50 saws a year would show a return on the investment within a reasonable amount of time.

If doing it as a business it would be a real marketing tool, when a new model comes out that looks like it will be popular like the new Husky 562 to buy one the minute it hits the market and show the before and after gains, it would prolly drum up alot of business for that particular model. It's not like you would be out any money as if there is any gains at all their would be a buyer.

The irrefutable validation of port work through dyno testing would be worth the money spent in my point of view if one is doing it as a business and is planning on staying in the business for a few years, if I'm just grinding for myself or a few buddies then it's a whole different story. It damn sure would eliminate a lot of headaches as a builder.

I agree entirely with you. But, like I mentioned in my post before, I'm not in the least bit interested in going that far. Matter of fact, I don't even want the added business. I do more than I want to now.

 

[blsnelling]

What the :censored: happened here?
This is the reason I find myself reading less and less on this site. Great people, great info then a train wreck.

And that's so unfortunate. If just a handful of people were "given a little guidance" by the powers that be, this place could be 1000% more amiable. Until then we all just have to live with it.

 

[weimedog]

What a bunch of pathetic whining and moaning. Weimedog, you need to get one thing straight, because I keep reading it again and again. I don't ever post anything for marketing purposes! This is a hobby, I'm an extravert, and I love to share my work with other crazy saw nuts. Plain and simple. The only reason I got into porting other peoples saws, is because the people kept asking for it. And for another thing, I don't need this business. All it does is support my hobby, something I don't need. Oh, and you hoped I would get creative and start this R&D you speak of? Do you have any clue what you're saying? Have you seen the attacks I've received for what little testing I've tried to do? It was a bismal failure. Repeatable testing takes more than I'm willing to invest. You have no idea how much time was involved in generating that flawed data! I'm not even remotely interested in going farther with that. Matter of fact, you'll see less rather than more. And Woodchucker, I'm not suggesting you're jealous of me. You have no reason to be. But if you go back and read your post, reading it as from the outside looking in, it simiply reads as nothing but suggesting that this saw is not what it's claimed to be.

Weimedog, I will not get into a childish battle with you here. I've stated some facts above to answer some of your erroneous claims, and that's all I intend to do. If you want to see R&D in chainsaw developement, go start a company and do it yourself. I will not be doing that. This is a hobby, and that would be too much work that wouldn't be fun. I'd rather quit porting anyone elses saws and simply enjoy them.

Well guys there you have it. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

 

[ChipMonger]

This is an interesting delima actually and I'm glad you asked this question! I don't have a beef with any of those things people are happy about..(people are happy buying cigarette's!)...as long as those spending their dollars understand the nature of the risk and the nature of the service they are purchasing! My desire is to advance the standards of performance modifications into those adopted by almost every other motorsport on the planet so when a customer decides to spend his dollars, there are tangible ways for him to choose one builder over another. Also an expectation level of what they will get for their dollars that matches the product infact delivered. If I buy a pipe from FMF for my CR450F..I know aprox. what that will do to the powerband of that motorcycle. There are all kinds of charts and tests from independent sources to verify the claims of FMF and those like them & also allow comparisons of the different products..obviously the market and the value of these mods don't justify that here..yet! So more of the proof and/ or insurance needs to fall on the builder. What we have here is simply hear say....and as you said everyone seems to be happy with that!

Since this isn't a mature business folks like Brad depend on customers to both risk their money and their equipment on modifications that may or may not be improvements for them over a period of time. This thread is documentation of that and how Brad dealt with essentially a customer funded R&D project. I have no issue as these two willingly worked this deal together. I would caution others by asking how do they know their saw will respond to what gains they have in mind after ONE saw build and all the hear say relative to that saw? Because there is no way to truely know what you will get in a deal such as this 372XT...and all the smoke and BS we just waded thru is all the info we get relative to these builds and customers. Basically the guist of these last few pages is to try and dilute my argument and bash any who question the validity of these "pitch your money into the void" approaches to buying saw mods!..We need to do better. This thread is also documentation on how folks use this forum to attempt to use complete BS to try and bluster & intimidate away true analysis of these subjective situations...I have to ask, what's in it for these guys?

This isn't a Brad bashing deal to me at all. Its a question to all here who would play in this random mod game for entertainment and fun...and ask for someones saw AND their money to do so! Nothing wrong if all those in the barrel understand their risk....and willingly take the plunge!

The second part of my premise is without the large amounts of R&D time...racing is in fact a cheap way to compare! So define a "woods port" class and have at it! Would be fun for all involved and the competition would give tangible numbers to the builders concepts and give customers/fans data that can help guide their purchases and therefore provide incentives for builders to do..research! (U know win on Sunday, sell on Monday approach) That's it. So what do YOU think is bothering those who have attempted to filibuster this issue and premise away? The most technical arguments so far are..that I'm a jerk..and I edited my posts...and I call them monkeys!!! Is that enough to convince you NOT to do some homework before spending your hard earned cash AND the cash invested in your saw? Certainly isn't for me! But that all they have as rebuttals.

Lets get something clear right now...I asked Brad if he would mod the saw for me. Brad did NOT approach me asking for a guinea pig. I know the risks associated with something like this, and i accept them fully.

 

[blsnelling]

Lets get something clear right now...I asked Brad if he would mod the saw for me. Brad did NOT approach me asking for a guinea pig. I know the risks associated with something like this, and i accept them fully.

Did I conveniently fail to tell you that I had not ported a X-TORQ before? Did you know that the saw would perform, or that I would beat on it until it did? Have you run other saws of mine and can verify that they are substantially stronger than stock? Do you feel that your money would be better spent if I invested thousands of dollars in testing equipment, quit my day job that pays real money, and charged you double for the mods?

 

[weimedog]

Lets get something clear right now...I asked Brad if he would mod the saw for me. Brad did NOT approach me asking for a guinea pig. I know the risks associated with something like this, and i accept them fully.

And I don't have any problem with this arraignment..a partnership to develop a Strato saw...and fits into exactly what I have said about Brads business. Mutual risk. Eyes open. And I have repeated saying this several times. So do you have a problem with the concept of defining tangible ways to define modification products? You have invested in R&D and are happy with the results..how would you define in a real and tangible way what you got for your money to another pro?

 

[blsnelling]

how would you define in a real and tangible way what you got for your money to another pro?

He already did that. It's been posted more than once now. Would you like for me to quote it for you again? Or do you want him to spend thousands of dollars and go buy a dyno and shut you up, money that you're obviously not willing to spend.

 

[ChipMonger]

Did I conveniently fail to tell you that I had not ported a X-TORQ before? NO Did you know that the saw would perform, or that I would beat on it until it did?I knew i would get a saw that runs and performs ABOVE stock. Im happy with that! Have you run other saws of mine and can verify that they are substantially stronger than stock?Absolutely Do you feel that your money would be better spent if I invested thousands of dollars in testing equipment, quit my day job that pays real money, and charged you double for the mods?NO

For all i know im the first to have a 372XT ported etc. I believe that as time goes on things will be learned about the saw and further performance will be able to be achieved. Brad has done a stellar job, and i have a hell of a work saw as far as im concerned.

 

[8433jeff]

Am I don't have any problem with this arraignment..a partnership to develop a Strato saw...and fits into exactly what I have said about Brads business. Mutual risk. Eyes open. And I have repeated saying this several times. So do you have a problem with the concept of defining tangible ways to define modification products? You have invested in R&D and are happy with the results..how would you define in a real and tangible way what you got for your money to another pro?

I'd let them run the saw. Nobody has a problem with the concept, nobody has the money either. Saw dynos are pretty rare, 3 manufacturers I know have them, and if we were in Europe they wouldn't me or you near them. You figure it out, then come and post your results. And then I'll complain that your dyno is slighted against a certain saw. Its easy to complain, you have certainly proved that.

 

[weimedog]

He already did that. It's been posted more than once now. Would you like for me to quote it for you again? Or do you want him to spend thousands of dollars and go buy a dyno and shut you up, money that you're obviously not willing to spend.

Yes please quote the gains again. And please keep repeating what you did two or three posts ago about your opinion on rigorous testing and the quantification of modification services. There certainly is truth in advertising with you Brad. no doubt about that!

 

[weimedog]

I'd let them run the saw. Nobody has a problem with the concept, nobody has the money either. Saw dynos are pretty rare, 3 manufacturers I know have them, and if we were in Europe they wouldn't me or you near them. You figure it out, then come and post your results. And then I'll complain that your dyno is slighted against a certain saw. Its easy to complain, you have certainly proved that.

yea I have to agree..but at least the discussion on how to measure is on! Love the last sentence! So true.. I remember a motorcycle tuner claiming x hp and another making the point the only true comparison is on the SAME dyno and the formers dyno was a POS! I dealt with that working for a motorcycle company a few years back..you are so right!

 

[blsnelling]

Yes please quote the gains again. And please keep repeating what you did two or three posts ago about your opinion on rigorous testing and the quantification of modification services. There certainly is truth in advertising with you Brad. no doubt about that!

Obviously you don't have much reading comprehension, or you're calling me a liar. Which is it? I don't advertise anything. What part of that don't you understand? Or again, are you calling me a liar?

No one posts more vids showing their work than me. My work stand on it's own. I don't need your R&D to support what I do. Matter of fact, I don't need you to support what I do. People obviously like what they see. Otherwise they wouldn't have the confidence they do to send me $1,300 dollars to buy them a brand new MS660, immediately destroy the factory warranty, and to send them a saw that significantly outperforms a stock saw.

How does it feel to be alone on this island you've created? Obviously neither I nor my customers need what you want to have confidence in my work. Let's just settle this matter right here. I'm NOT going to do what you're wanting. So you can just go somewhere else for your modded saws. How difficult is that? You see, I don't want to please you. You're beating a dead horse.:deadhorse:

 

[weimedog]

For all i know im the first to have a 372XT ported etc. I believe that as time goes on things will be learned about the saw and further performance will be able to be achieved. Brad has done a stellar job, and i have a hell of a work saw as far as im concerned.

And we all benefit from your investment...like I have said so many times I don't have a problem with your arrangement.

I do wonder what dealers and those who have big investments in the saw business feel about repair/modifications types when they have to deal with things like warranty's and product liability and have to spend all kinds of money on insurance and those who claim its a hobby don't! Not trying to start anything more..just crossed my mind as you challenged me relative to starting a business...I have been a business owner and had to purchase all the legal protections etc....very familiar with that game.

 

[blsnelling]

And we all benefit from your investment...like I have said so many times I don't have a problem with your arraingement.

You have no problem with this arrangement, yet you have used it as the premise to build your entire arguement on? Wow!

 

[THALL10326]

Good reading is this thread

Man this thread is a dosey. I've been reading it and must say its very revealing. What really amazes me is the openness about it. Who in hell in their right mind puts up information like this thread that anyone from the
EPA could sit at their desk, read, copy and then pay a visit to the modder that posted it all and slap him with a $35,000 fine for knowingly modifiieing a EPA certified strato saw. To take that risk and be so bold to put it all on the net for the world to read tells me this must be one helluva rewarding hobby, I know money can make people do some stupid stuff, didn't know hobbies could as well, learn something new everyday. Some people grow pot for a hobby but I've never seen them post it on the net for the police to read and come pay them a visit, its getting bad when pot heads are smarter than saw modders,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

Carry on, this thread is good for giggles,LOLOL

 

[THALL10326]

Obviously you don't have much reading comprehension, or you're calling me a liar. Which is it? I don't advertise anything. What part of that don't you understand? Or again, are you calling me a liar?

No one posts more vids showing their work than me. My work stand on it's own. I don't need your R&D to support what I do. Matter of fact, I don't need you to support what I do. People obviously like what they see. Otherwise they wouldn't have the confidence they do to send me $1,300 dollars to buy them a brand new MS660, immediately destroy the factory warranty, and to send them a saw that significantly outperforms a stock saw.

How does it feel to be alone on this island you've created? Obviously neither I nor my customers need what you want to have confidence in my work. Let's just settle this matter right here. I'm NOT going to do what you're wanting. So you can just go somewhere else for your modded saws. How difficult is that? You see, I don't want to please you. You're beating a dead horse.:deadhorse:

Oppppppppps, customers ya say, might wanna strike that, just trying to help ya out there.....

 

[blsnelling]

What law am I breaking by modding a strato saw? They're no longer a new saw when they leave here and I'm not a dealer.

 

[weimedog]

Obviously you don't have much reading comprehension, or you're calling me a liar. Which is it? I don't advertise anything. What part of that don't you understand? Or again, are you calling me a liar?

No one posts more vids showing their work than me. My work stand on it's own. I don't need your R&D to support what I do. Matter of fact, I don't need you to support what I do. People obviously like what they see. Otherwise they wouldn't have the confidence they do to send me $1,300 dollars to buy them a brand new MS660, immediately destroy the factory warranty, and to send them a saw that significantly outperforms a stock saw.

How does it feel to be alone on this island you've created? Obviously neither I nor my customers need what you want to have confidence in my work. Let's just settle this matter right here. I'm NOT going to do what you're wanting. So you can just go somewhere else for your modded saws. How difficult is that? You see, I don't want to please you. You're beating a dead horse.:deadhorse:

yet again..you say it better than I could. They do this with a simple leap of faith...(I actually have to go work for my money so will have to chime in later.) And you really don't have to please me...I like to put my money where I know I will get a return. That implication is obvious to me now. My bet is the more you talk the more obvious it will become to others on the fence. I was good with you up to these last few posts..you have clearly articulated exactly my case. You do expect all to take the leap with you. You have no risk..as with no R&D to back up your mods, its all a gamble and no written warranty if all goes wrong. The customer has to rely on your resources and good nature to make them whole again. In this case you did....wonder if any chips got down there and scored a seal..maybe doesn't show up for a while? What would you do? Say that's the risk you took mr. chips? Like I said, I have to admit you are pure truth in advertising. So what would you do if one of your builds wasn't what the customer expected after spending $750 to $1000 on the project (saw & mods included)? What if one of your builds fell flat relative to to thers at a GTG or some other tangible arena and the customer was PO'ed as it wasn't what he expected? What woud you do if a month in after a mod the saw fried itself on the job for a logger trying to make his numbers? What would you do? Give him his money back? Return the saw to original condition? What? You act is if your some unwilling partner in this...wonder how the IRS see's that?