well, the future is on its way, the solar charging station is pretty skookum, and dude says they are in R+D of a 230 sized machine...
Its Electric!
- Thread starter northmanlogging
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
well, for some reason it won't let me post the vid....
Its Letdig18 on Youtube, new volvo electric excavators.
Its Letdig18 on Youtube, new volvo electric excavators.
I think they’re cool and all, and I appreciate Volvo (and Doosan, who they’re partnered with in the excavator market) taking some initiative in an effort to move away from diesel.
But I think hydrogen is probably the way forward for off road applications, particularly in larger equipment. Cummins has some interesting designs already, and they just signed a deal with Versatile Agriculture for row crop tractors and sprayers. (I doubt anyone on this board is familiar, and that’s okay-also https://www.cummins.com/news/releas...rsatile-hydrogen-engine-partnership-announced for the link.)
Hyundai/Doosan Infracore have their sights set on dropping some more equipment in ‘23 and ‘26, both electric and hydrogen. (Link: https://www.equipmentjournal.com/co...and-hydrogen-excavators-in-2023-and-2026/amp/)
But I think hydrogen is probably the way forward for off road applications, particularly in larger equipment. Cummins has some interesting designs already, and they just signed a deal with Versatile Agriculture for row crop tractors and sprayers. (I doubt anyone on this board is familiar, and that’s okay-also https://www.cummins.com/news/releas...rsatile-hydrogen-engine-partnership-announced for the link.)
Hyundai/Doosan Infracore have their sights set on dropping some more equipment in ‘23 and ‘26, both electric and hydrogen. (Link: https://www.equipmentjournal.com/co...and-hydrogen-excavators-in-2023-and-2026/amp/)
Also, here’s another article regarding fuel cells & the like: https://www.forconstructionpros.com.../large-machinery-oems-explore-hydrogen-future
I'm torn on the hydrogen stuff, especially the "fuel cell" idea Chevy tried that awhile ago and it was a total failure, essentially using natural gas as a fuel stock to then create hydrogen, then charge a battery with that? Seems like a whole lot of wasted steps to still be sucking the teat of big oil, Hydrogen Gas as a fuel makes absolute sense, cause when it burns it creates water, and you get it from water... but its super inefficient, be better to go biodiesel if you wanted to retain internal combustion but be more green, 90% of the power of petro diesel with what 10% of the emissions? And it can be made from algae in remote lifeless areas, much like petro oil only without the nastyness.
Chevy’s fuel cell was a complete an utter failure. Fuel cells are… Interesting. In theory it’s just two redox reactions and boom there’s the power. It’s never that simple, though, albeit they are popular on forklifts…
I think ICEs are still the way forward for off road. They’re simple (compared to a lot of things-turbines, etc) and their fuel is still more energy dense and easier to move than… Well, electricity. It’s hard to move electricity. Diesel? Nah, you and I both know we just fill up the L tank on the 3/4 ton (or at least that’s how I do it, at that big K company we had fuel and lube trucks) and then pump it back into the machine.
Sure, hydrogen isn’t quite that easy, but it still travels in tanks, and you can transfer it quickly, whereas electricity is limited in its charging rate. Biodiesel would be fantastic. I like diesel, I like the way it smells (yeah, I’m one of those weirdos, but only when I don’t get it on my hands), it’s easy and safe to transport, and most modern equipment runs it anyway. But it doesn’t solve the carbon emissions problem that the G20 have pledged to solve. I think Cummins coming out with their series of multifuel engines, and I mean hydrogen, diesel, natural gas or propane, not just liquid hydrocarbons, is a good start.
Who knows, maybe we’ll be putting a supercharger on a diesel sometime soon to get the volumes of air needed to get power from less energy dense fuels? I’d love to see it.
I think ICEs are still the way forward for off road. They’re simple (compared to a lot of things-turbines, etc) and their fuel is still more energy dense and easier to move than… Well, electricity. It’s hard to move electricity. Diesel? Nah, you and I both know we just fill up the L tank on the 3/4 ton (or at least that’s how I do it, at that big K company we had fuel and lube trucks) and then pump it back into the machine.
Sure, hydrogen isn’t quite that easy, but it still travels in tanks, and you can transfer it quickly, whereas electricity is limited in its charging rate. Biodiesel would be fantastic. I like diesel, I like the way it smells (yeah, I’m one of those weirdos, but only when I don’t get it on my hands), it’s easy and safe to transport, and most modern equipment runs it anyway. But it doesn’t solve the carbon emissions problem that the G20 have pledged to solve. I think Cummins coming out with their series of multifuel engines, and I mean hydrogen, diesel, natural gas or propane, not just liquid hydrocarbons, is a good start.
Who knows, maybe we’ll be putting a supercharger on a diesel sometime soon to get the volumes of air needed to get power from less energy dense fuels? I’d love to see it.
with a semi portable solar charging system, (the main reason I tried to post the above vijeo) you could simply plug the machine in overnight and it would be ready to go in the morning, zero cost. (the solar array has its own batteries so you can in fact charge overnight for the illiterate out there)
Lithium Ion batteries are pretty damned skookum, roughly 10 years to 80% life, and another 10 years at 80% life before being recycled... that pretty skookum
Even on most modern projects they are not so far from infastructure that a traditional 220v interface charger couldn't be set up in a day, seen plenty of sights that have a temporary power service in before ground is broke. The charge packs are quite literally plug and play.
Multi fuel is an ok option, but I am skeptical, Hel I was skeptical of EV too, but also hopeful, every day advancements are being made, to write of any new tech off hand is foolish at best.
Bill G
ArboristSite King
Cat had a hybrid dozer many years ago.
https://www.constructionequipment.c...e-electric-drive-redefines-dozer-productivity
https://www.constructionequipment.c...e-electric-drive-redefines-dozer-productivity
does 2010 count as "many" years ago?
Probably the wave of the future, but I think cat punted a little too early, if they re release that at competitive pricing say next year, it will sell like hotcakes.
Bill G
ArboristSite King
Well in the world of new technology yes it does....... 12 years is a lifetime.
An update
https://www.cat.com/en_AU/news/mach...rading-performance-fuel-efficiency-gains.html
Was going to say-Cat built the D7E and I ran one-pushed well, blade lift was slow and uneven with the single center cylinder. Then the D6 XE came out and I ran one. It’s awesome, with infinitely variable speed and a 6 way blade I could almost finish like a D3. Then Cat put out a D11 XE prototype for Minexpo 2021: D11 XE Walkthrough Article.
Bill G
ArboristSite King
I saw the article on the D11 but never got time before work to post it. I have sat on a conventional D11 at a dealer here. I did it just to get a feel for the sheer size. It was being prepped to be used as a scraper tractor.
Almost $70k for the charging system alone is gonna eliminate a whole lot of buyers on that end. That's just not sustainable for most. All that to maybe squeak in a days work, maybe.
Diesel electric is the answer IMO. Cuts the power plant requirement by 1/2-2/3 which reduces air emissions, oil dependency, and the need for those God awful dirty, wasteful batteries. Small diesels are able to meet emissions easier than large ones. Some are doing it right now with no dpf or scr. Volvo has a system on their big cube engines that only requires SCR, no dpf. The technology and dependability are improving. It's so clean right now you almost can't smell the fumes standing next to the exhaust of a big cube engine. .02/.3 g/bhp soot and NOX, respectively. That number further decreases when using biodiesel (not blends). Synthetic fuels have been proven and would be much more mainstream by now if not for the EPA hanging the noose around their neck.
Diesel electric is the answer IMO. Cuts the power plant requirement by 1/2-2/3 which reduces air emissions, oil dependency, and the need for those God awful dirty, wasteful batteries. Small diesels are able to meet emissions easier than large ones. Some are doing it right now with no dpf or scr. Volvo has a system on their big cube engines that only requires SCR, no dpf. The technology and dependability are improving. It's so clean right now you almost can't smell the fumes standing next to the exhaust of a big cube engine. .02/.3 g/bhp soot and NOX, respectively. That number further decreases when using biodiesel (not blends). Synthetic fuels have been proven and would be much more mainstream by now if not for the EPA hanging the noose around their neck.
Isuzu has had diesels that used SCR only since the first IT4 requirements came on the scene. It’s not a new thing. DPFs suck, but it’s important to remember how much easier off-road regs are than on-road. So, it’s not a new thing, but it is a super nice setup. I believe Caterpillar is making a move towards that system as well.
I also struggle to think of a D11 as a scraper tractor. I know Moigner uses D8s and 9s and McAnich (both in your area, Bill) uses 10s to pull big pans, but I’ve never seen an 11, even on the internet, pulling a pan. Maybe to push load 651s, but never with a pan behind it.
I also struggle to think of a D11 as a scraper tractor. I know Moigner uses D8s and 9s and McAnich (both in your area, Bill) uses 10s to pull big pans, but I’ve never seen an 11, even on the internet, pulling a pan. Maybe to push load 651s, but never with a pan behind it.
I wasnt aware of any differences in Tier 4 final, what are they? I do knw Non road is required to pass the same not to exceed limits, steady state cycle and cold start cycle as highway engines. There are some exceptions like constant speed engines (gensets) but tier 4 final aligned everything up much tighter than previous requirements. I was under the impression that 4 final brought the g/bhp/hr into alignment but its been a long time since i was on epa website. Every (new) construction rig I've run in the last 5-6 years has had full dpf and scr systems so it can't be that easy to meet, or more would be doing it. These are bigger bore engines.
What is becoming more and more common is to make both catalysts in one package to save space and ease of maintenance but they are still serving both functions collecting soot and NOX reduction.
What is becoming more and more common is to make both catalysts in one package to save space and ease of maintenance but they are still serving both functions collecting soot and NOX reduction.
Biodiesel is skookum, it would probably take off more if petro oil wasn't subsidized so much. As it is its difficult to even source around here unless you make your own.
I'm totally against the DPF "solution" lets turn nitrous oxide emissions into Nitric acid, because that totally makes sense, then collect all the inert solid carbon "soot" so that the entire system needs overhauled every couple years or you burn 20 gallons cooking off the soot, its ******* ridiculous. Meanwhile European diesels don't have these problems and still have reduced emissions weird huh.
The batteries get a lot of bad press, but they are less volatile then gasoline, and less likely to create a hazmat situation then diesel or any other liquid fuel, and they remain good for decades. Much of the skookum about the mining is just that skookum put out by folks that don't want a viable alternative to oil. Don't get me wrong a lithium fire is bad news, but its exceedingly rare, again despite what the media wants you to believe
As for the charging station running $60k (or so) I spend close to that in fuel every year, more if I run the trucks more often, and if they do get teh 230 sized excavator up and marketed, a diesel version would burn 70-90 gallons a day... that solar array would be paid for in 6 months.
(for clarity, Skookum, is chinook jargon, meaning big, strong, best, or rumors, often untrue rumors... its a very oxymoronic word, but it sounds cool so I find myself using it a lot... that saw is a skookum choocher, vs whats the skookum on marky mc muttface etc)
Since you are tallying the fuel bill for your whole fleet let's do the same for an all electric fleet.....you'd have to ensure every peice of equipment was in the same spot everytime a charge was needed to take advantage of that charging station. Otherwise, what's the alternative....customers sure won't want to foot the bill to charge your equipment that you are already charging them to do the job. Other options? Hauling equipment in and out of a jobsite would get expensive real quick. Out in the woods or somewhere remote makes it even more difficult to manage. 1 charger is highly unlikely to meet the demands of a fleet, how many is needed is subjective. 2,3,4 chargers....$250k adds up real quick.
Maybe we are talking 2 different machines, but a JD 230 only has something like a 70 gallon tank. Ive never seen a piece of equipment that burned more than a whole tank of fuel everyday under normal operating conditions. There could be some rare exceptions like spring time in the fields dragging a bottom plow or a disc but those are loooong days, and anything electric comparable would absolutely need a few charges to do the same work.
To be clear I'm not knocking electric power. I think it's a dang good, efficient power source. It's the batteries where I feel the mark is being missed sorely. Extremely small power reserve for the size and weight, and cost.
Battery does have it's place. Commuter cars is a big one. City settings where smog is bad, local delivery, busses, refuse pickup, etc. All those scenarios also have a dedicated charging station..... BUT OTR, remote construction, extreme climate, etc, it's hard to understand why diesel electric isn't pursued more especially when it's been so well proven (locomotive, marine, etc).
well, since I park my machines pretty much in the same spot every night thats a no brainer, and the solar array is set up to charge 2 machines at a time, personally I never have more then that many machines on a job anyway, so its NBD.
As for fleet, the trucks get parked at home where if needed they could be charged via grid power, or home solar, a bigger outfit would likely have a dedicated shop area for truck parking, (one of the outfits here in town had 110v power to each truck parking spot to run block heaters, like 50-60 of em) So its not a foreign idea.
Seen guys burn through full tanks in a day every day, these jokers run things on max throttle all day and never think to run just a little slower and save 1/2 their fuel (they claim its more productive but I generally out pace them at 1/2-3/4 throttle, simply by limiting the monkey motion and extra moves as well as not forcing every move at full power, get a lot more done if you let the machine work at its pace.)
Had a discussion on here? or another logging forum about fuel efficiency, I just did 4 days and 1000' of road on about 30 gallons in my excavator, and around 90 in the dumb truck (working solo hence the 4 days, likely 2 with another person around), I can go 2 weeks on a tank in my little skidder(28-30 loads of logs if I got 2 a day) its not difficult, just don't drive like an idiot and work the machine only as hard as its happy, stalling out on every scoop, or turn only burns fuel and time.
And yer right, Diesel Electric is for now at least a better plan, however, the batteries really are up to the task, the tech really has come a long ways just in the last 10 years
Let’s just look at some numbers from the world I live in right now. Cat’s 349F excavator has a 190 gallon tank, so two transfer tank loads, and my experience I saw between 10-17 gallons per hour consumption depending on application, although I once saw 22 running WFO in HP mode slinging dirt with a 4.5 yard bucket… My transfer tank pump does 15 gpm, so after ~13 minutes at the machine I can get it ready for the next day, even if it’s a long one. I just can’t see electric doing that, ever.
As to IT4 vs T4F, the sole difference was to reduce NOx emissions 50% from IT4 to T4F. It more or less made SCR a requirement for everything above 75 horsepower for off road diesels.
Link-Belt make a big deal about their machines only using SCR, check it out for their 750 here: https://en.lbxco.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Link-Belt-750X4-1.pdf . No DPF, and I’m not sure what the definition of “big bore” or “construction rig” is, but this has 15.7L Isuzu making 512 horsepower in a ~79 ton excavator.
As to IT4 vs T4F, the sole difference was to reduce NOx emissions 50% from IT4 to T4F. It more or less made SCR a requirement for everything above 75 horsepower for off road diesels.
Link-Belt make a big deal about their machines only using SCR, check it out for their 750 here: https://en.lbxco.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Link-Belt-750X4-1.pdf . No DPF, and I’m not sure what the definition of “big bore” or “construction rig” is, but this has 15.7L Isuzu making 512 horsepower in a ~79 ton excavator.
10-17 gph... I feel faint lol
though in the right hands big machines get a lot of work done in a day. but geeslus 170 gal in 10 hours... ohhhh the pretty pretty lights.... mah? that you ma? thud....
