Large job (for me) question

[lsylvain]

I have a guy that want me cut and limb about 80 white pines.

All I have to do is cut limb and get them out far enough for the cherry picker.

I figure it will take about 320 man hours to cut, limb and take care of the brush. Plus I'll need to rent some equipment to skid them out.

$900 equipment
$2900 payroll
$300 misc cost

$4100 total cost

Does that sound about right?
What would a job like this usually go for?

I havn't been to the site yet to know of any special circumstances.

Thanks for any help.

 

[Newfie]

I'm not a pro or an expert but everything looks low to me except for the man hour estimate which looks at least double what I might expect it to take.

You need to have your payroll figure coming out at way more than $9.00 an hour.

Is he keeping the logs? What are your plans for the slash? What kinds of equipment do you need to rent to move stuff? Does he want tree length or sawlogs? Is it a clear cut or selective cut? Any road needed? Has the trucker seen the landing to see if it meets his needs?Lots of factors to reflect upon.

I wouldn't give a bid on a job before seeing the trees and the property. You don't want to find out that they are on a 45 degree slope with a stream to cross at the bottom.

I could be way wrong from my perspective and limited experience, but those are things I would want to consider.

 

[lsylvain]

Yes he is keeping the logs for the lumber so I'd need to cut them into saw logs. I'm meeting the guy on wed to check out the sight.

As far as clear or selective that's pretty much up to me, he just wnats enough lumber to build his house. So the non-esential trees can be avoided.

As far as what equipment I would need, I'm not sure yet until I see the sight. The $900 figure is what it cost me to rent a backhoe for 2 weeks. So I'm sure that is on the low side of things depending on what I'll end up needing.

My payroll does run at $9.00 for my labor. That is a definate figure, however I usually give my guys bonuses depending on profit.

I would be doing most if not all the saw work my self. So my help is primarily clean up etc.

I'm assuming the guy wants the brush burnt but I havn't discused that with him yet.

thanks

 

[Treeman14]

I'm not a logger, but I know you need to visit the site before you can give an estimate. How on earth did you come up with 320 M/hrs if you haven't seen the job?

 

[lsylvain]

the 320 hr figure is basically from doing the same type job with my father last month. 4 of us could cut, limb, and burn 8 bull pines a day taking our time. avg 4 man hours a tree for 80 trees 320 man hours in total. I would think that I could cut that number down quite a bit because we were doing it in 18" of snow and couldn't pull any of the logs out and had to precision drop them all side by side to keep the mess down, etc.

 

[StIhL MaGnUm]

Well I'am a logger and personally speaking I fell mostly White Pine and to do 80 seriously fell,limb,buck to length this should only take you if properly equiped 15-30 hrs max ad cleanup give or take 5-12hrs if done by hand.You did'nt say if you will be chipping or hauling the brush??I run a chainsaw and feller buncher which you probally won't have but I do 60-100 Pines in a 12hr day.It all depends on what you will have to use for equipment???

later Rob..

 

[treeclimber165]

I'd have to say some basic business management knowledge is lacking here also. How can an employee only cost you $9 per hour? Do you understand the difference between what you hand him in cash and what he costs you? And what is the purpose of giving away labor for payroll costs? Are you in business to earn a living or simply provide jobs for free? Does he have his own personal health insurance or will you be footing the bill when he hurts himself?

 

[lsylvain]

Dont worry about my payroll numbers. I have a degree in Business administration and I am 3 classes away from a second degree in accounting with a 3.8 GPA. $9 per hour pays my guys, their payroll taxes, workers comp etc. I am wanting to figure up the cost of the job, not how much I will charge.

 

[lsylvain]

StIhL MaGnUm do you really think I could get it done that fast? I'm sure you can, doing this on a regular basis.

I have a 20" husky an 18" and 12" stihl wedges ropes winch etc. nothing fancy.

If I get the job I was planning on a new saw and anything else I might need to get the job done. (new "toys" are always good to have)

what tools do you think I should have on hand?

thanks

 

[StIhL MaGnUm]

For one I would say you need a skidder to drag the logs once cut to a place where you can stack them??How do you plan to do this.What exactly do you have for equipment to do this job besides a saw and some wedges???

Later Rob..

 

[treeman82]

How big are these pine trees both in diameter and height? Why would he want to use green pine to build his house? From what I understand, working with green lumber is not fun. Also it is customary to run that stuff through a kiln after milling it. Unless these pines are HUGE or his house is going to be small... I would not think they are going to do him much good. Do you have any climbing gear yet? I would most likely suggest that you run up into them and just slash the brush out on your way up. Have maybe 3 guys on the ground running a big chipper. Once you have them all skinned you should be able to just drop them wherever you need to, possibly with the use of a pull line. By just crashing them in the middle of the woods (not sure how dense of a forrest we are talking about) you would be talking about making a huge mess and probably making several dangerous situations, as well as injuring desireable trees. Just my thoughts though.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

You might consider buying a snorkel along with the new chain saw. In case you get in over your head you will still be able to breath.

With your claimed business/accounting education you must realize that factoring in wages is a cost of the job. You'll need that in order to decide how much you'll charge. What's the difference between the two?

Are those eighty trees bean poles and fence posts or old growth Doug fir? Too many variables in the formula.

Tom

 

[lsylvain]

that's pretty much it.

I was panning on renting something to pull the logs out. I'm not sure if I can get a skidder witch would be the best way I know. I seriousely doubt the rental guys have one, but they do have dozers and other large equipment that I would think would work.

 

[treeman82]

lsylvan... I just saw what you responded with as I was making my post. With your current tools being stated.. I honestly think you should pass on this job. Somebody is going to get screwed here. Obviously it will either be you or the customer.. however I think that the odds are it will be you. Start small with tree work.... dropping 80 pines while trying to salvage the logs for lumber could be putting you in a little too deep right now for what you can handle. JMHO

 

[lsylvain]

They don't use green lumber to build the house. They exchange the logs for a % of the board feet in lumber. Instead of the company paying him in cash for the logs they pay him in lumber.

I know I can do the work, i've done it before just not for someone other than my family. I've loged 15 acres with my unlce with a team of horses to skid the logs out.

That is basicaly my plan to have 3 guys cleaning up behind me as I limb them up. The forest is pretty dense, but he doesn't care about keeping any particular trees.

There is already a cleared spot for the logs right by the road so that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[StIhL MaGnUm]

Well if you can get your hands on the proper equipment I would give it a shot but if not I would have to say pass on this job because if all you have is a saw and wedges etc..you won't be able to complete the job,as for the statement "but he does'nt care about keeping any particular trees" that my friend is not the way jobs like this should work even if he does'nt care you should especially if you don't want a reputation of being a hack logger you must care about what your doing when your out in the woods,you want the work to look good when complete that way if others see it you will get more of it instead of them saying look at that mess etc..Just My Opinion Let me know what you can get for equipment..

Hope this helps

Later Rob..

 

[Ryan Willock]

4 trees a day?? if thats all you can handle i would defanatly walk away from this job!! i personally felled, limbed, bucked, skidded and decked 35 good sized trees today and pushed up the slash. and yes i was using a chain saw. what model husky do you have, pro or consumer, mid size or large production saw??? it sounds like you don't have ANY of the proper equipment. you also have to factor in diesel for the tractor (backhoe, what ever!) you would be suprised at how fast you can go through fuel when you are working the equipment hard!!! also if you are forced to use Highway diesel as oposed to Off Highway diesel then your fuel will cost about 1/3 more just some thoughts:angel:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

So you are paying your guys minimum wage if the payroll cost is $9/hr.

A skidstear witha a grapple bucket, and chain for skidding.

Big saws for felling, spare chain.

How much are you billing out per day for your truck?

are you billing out 9/hr for your labor? You gotta pay yourself.

4100/80=51.25/tree

75*80=6000

 

[JimL]

15 acres to log isnt much. I am working on logging 160 acres pretty heavy now. I can cut, and top 50 trees a day, had 49 on the counter today. I got another guy skidding with me. Plus is gotta spend some time in the yard stacking and sorting ect...


320 hours is alot for 80 trees, i asume on flat ground?

 

[lsylvain]

I pay my help $6 and hour plus bonuses. Baised on profit for the year.

what I meant by not having any trees that he cares about was just that I don't have to worry about him wanting any particular trees left on the site.

My biggest saw i have is a husky 255

I can get a JH 450 dozer

If a big bobcat would work my brother has one I just didn't think it would be much help as far as skiding the logs out, because of traction.

I also can use a backhoe but I think the skidsteer would be better.

Another company around here rents out large equipment but I couldn't get up with them today.

I'm sure I can do it in less than 320 man hours, but I'm also sure I can't get it done in the times you guys can get it done in.

I don't bill by the hour with other jobs. My main business is landscaping/mowing. I learned a long time ago that people don't like to be shown that they just paid someone $80/hr to cut their grass, they like to think it takes us all day while they are at work.

Do any of you guys just bill by the hour on a job like this?

thanks