Lasers replacing the logger and chainsaws

[snobdds]

This is interesting because there are a lot of benefits to this technology. It eliminates a lot of human risk and cost. I think the efficiency goes up with how fast it gets through material. If some technology brings down cost and boots efficiency, it usually gets applied somehow. Will .gov allow such a powerful technology/weapon out on the market? I don't know.

I know I would buy one. I have a lot of work for one at the ranch.

 

[slowp]

First of all, that's tree trimming, not what I'd call logging. Are they cutting trees to make boards? Nope.

Second, two words, Fire Danger.

 

[snobdds]

First of all, that's tree trimming, not what I'd call logging. Are they cutting trees to make boards? Nope.

Second, two words, Fire Danger.

I think you're viewing this only from the practical side of things. Which is fine, we could list all the pit falls of this all day long. There are many.

I'm viewing this on a higher theoretical angle, pit falls aside.. Could lasers replace the logger here. Yes, but not completely. I know that loggers will go in and top a stand to preserve the value against wind damage. Imagine not having the cost of a climbing crew and being able to send in a couple guys with a laser and do the same thing? That is now theoretically possible, where it wasn't just a few years ago.

 

[slowp]

Oh, and two more words. Directional felling.

Falling for a logging job is more than "dropping" a tree. In a production operation, trees have to be FELLED in a way that makes yarding efficient. A bad faller can ruin efficiency, making it hard to pull the tree out of the woods and up onto the landing. Just dumping trees on the ground, without knowing where the landing and skid trails will be located makes for damaged leave trees and getting hung up on new and old stumps while skidding/yarding the logs. This seems to be concept hard for many to grasp.

I know of one logger who started making money after he used more money to pay some good production fallers.

Can this laser do directional falling when put in a unit with real timber?

I can see it being used in the winter to get a warming fire going.

 

[snobdds]

Oh, and two more words. Directional felling.

Falling for a logging job is more than "dropping" a tree. In a production operation, trees have to be FELLED in a way that makes yarding efficient. A bad faller can ruin efficiency, making it hard to pull the tree out of the woods and up onto the landing. Just dumping trees on the ground, without knowing where the landing and skid trails will be located makes for damaged leave trees and getting hung up on new and old stumps while skidding/yarding the logs. This seems to be concept hard for many to grasp.

I know of one logger who started making money after he used more money to pay some good production fallers.

Can this laser do directional falling when put in a unit with real timber?

I can see it being used in the winter to get a warming fire going.

I get it. It's new tech that could replace some things so the obvious way to push back is to point out all the "bads" that arise from it.

 

[slowp]

I think you're viewing this only from the practical side of things. Which is fine, we could list all the pit falls of this all day long. There are many.

I'm viewing this on a higher theoretical angle, pit falls aside.. Could lasers replace the logger here. Yes, but not completely. I know that loggers will go in and top a stand to preserve the value against wind damage. Imagine not having the cost of a climbing crew and being able to send in a couple guys with a laser and do the same thing? That is now theoretically possible, where it wasn't just a few years ago.

Where is this "topping" of an entire stand of timber being done?

I know of some areas that had some limbing done on the edge of clearcuts in British Columbia. Then, sometimes, trees are topped for snag creation, but not many. And finally, sometimes trees are topped when being used for tail trees.

Is directional felling/falling important to you? Yarding production? Plus, from April into October (can vary depending on precipitation and temperature) we have restrictions statewide for Fire Season. Equipment has to have spark arrestors and fire extinguishers on it. Fallers must carry a shovel and extinguisher with them. How would you make a laser fire safe? Note the charring on the cut part in the video.

 

[slowp]

I get it. It's new tech that could replace some things so the obvious way to push back is to point out all the "bads" that arise from it.

Have you worked on a logging job? I'm pointing out the obvious about it. Fire is a big worry in the PNW where production logging, not hobby logging, is a real industry. I don't think you get it.

Modify it so trees can be directionally felled. I can't emphasize that enough. It's important. It's the responsibility of a production faller to start things out correctly.

A feller buncher/processor is pretty high tech, but limited by steep ground. They can place logs for extremely efficient skidding. How will you do that with a laser? Control of the direction of the tree is everything, unless you plan to use a helicopter to yard it out. Then you can jackstraw trees if your pride isn't important.

 

[snobdds]

Where is this "topping" of an entire stand of timber being done?

I know of some areas that had some limbing done on the edge of clearcuts in British Columbia. Then, sometimes, trees are topped for snag creation, but not many. And finally, sometimes trees are topped when being used for tail trees.

Is directional felling/falling important to you? Yarding production? Plus, from April into October (can vary depending on precipitation and temperature) we have restrictions statewide for Fire Season. Equipment has to have spark arrestors and fire extinguishers on it. Fallers must carry a shovel and extinguisher with them. How would you make a laser fire safe? Note the charring on the cut part in the video.

They do it in wyoming on private lands to preserve the marketable value of the wood. Wind is bad here in the winter. If the base of the tree is frozen into the ground, the whip effect of the blowing tree will break them about 25 feet up.

Again, I understand there are many pitfalls. Understand what's coming. The debate is needed.

 

[northmanlogging]

I think you're viewing this only from the practical side of things. Which is fine, we could list all the pit falls of this all day long. There are many.

I'm viewing this on a higher theoretical angle, pit falls aside.. Could lasers replace the logger here. Yes, but not completely. I know that loggers will go in and top a stand to preserve the value against wind damage. Imagine not having the cost of a climbing crew and being able to send in a couple guys with a laser and do the same thing? That is now theoretically possible, where it wasn't just a few years ago.

no one in their right mind tops an entire stand to get better production, if its topped and then left to grow you get rotten cores and castle tops, coppicing is a totally different deal btw, Topping is done for safety reasons, either as a tail hold, or lift tree, or when you are in short ground in order to get the tree on the ground without hitting anything important. Any ******* that is topping trees and leaving them to grow needs to have their spurs rammed up their sphincter sideways, the amount of wood i've had to come back and try to salvage because of these idiots is ridiculous.

Lasers are never going to replace boots on the ground, to get a laser big enough you would need a HUGE power source (I used to make CO2 lazers, they were mostly used for etching some for cutting thin material, they are power hungry beasts)

is it a cool concept sure, is it even remotely practical never, to say nothing of the fire danger, or inadvertent cutting

 

[snobdds]

no one in their right mind tops an entire stand to get better production, if its topped and then left to grow you get rotten cores and castle tops, coppicing is a totally different deal btw, Topping is done for safety reasons, either as a tail hold, or lift tree, or when you are in short ground in order to get the tree on the ground without hitting anything important. Any ******* that is topping trees and leaving them to grow needs to have their spurs rammed up their sphincter sideways, the amount of wood i've had to come back and try to salvage because of these idiots is ridiculous.

Lasers are never going to replace boots on the ground, to get a laser big enough you would need a HUGE power source (I used to make CO2 lazers, they were mostly used for etching some for cutting thin material, they are power hungry beasts)

is it a cool concept sure, is it even remotely practical never, to say nothing of the fire danger, or inadvertent cutting

Most of our logging is in the winter where fire is not a concern.

 

[northmanlogging]

They do it in wyoming on private lands to preserve the marketable value of the wood. Wind is bad here in the winter. If the base of the tree is frozen into the ground, the whip effect of the blowing tree will break them about 25 feet up.

Again, I understand there are many pitfalls. Understand what's coming. The debate is needed.

remember I'm from Wyoming, no one tops stands there, unless they've been swindled by some ********** "arborista" Yes the wind is bad, its also why you won't see many tall trees to begin with, those you do see will be in valleys and draws, or up in the mountains where the wind isn't so bad.
Wind river is desert for the most part, i.e. nothing but stubby grass cactus and sage brush.

 

[northmanlogging]

Most of our logging is in the winter where fire is not a concern.

no

 

[snobdds]

remember I'm from Wyoming, no one tops stands there, unless they've been swindled by some ********** "arborista" Yes the wind is bad, its also why you won't see many tall trees to begin with, those you do see will be in valleys and draws, or up in the mountains where the wind isn't so bad.
Wind river is desert for the most part, i.e. nothing but stubby grass cactus and sage brush.

Good, I'm glad your from here. Not many can say that.

I have property in the Snowy Range mountains...

 

[snobdds]

no

Am I only going to get the contrarian angle from you? You have any thoughts on the theoretical application here?

 

[northmanlogging]

Am I only going to get the contrarian angle from you? You have any thoughts on the theoretical application here?

read my post #9, skip the part where I call you out on stupidity and finish the bottom half

 

[northmanlogging]

Good, I'm glad your from here. Not many can say that.

I have property in the Snowy Range mountains...

I got out, and don't have plans to go back... From Douglas, Casper, Midwest/Edgerton, but spent time all over the state.

 

[slowp]

This is my go to picture of an example of directional felling.


It should be angled more up the hill, but this particular YARDING crew was used to working with logs laid out across the hill so that's what the fallers did. It's tight spacing. Note the slash (limbs) is still green but had it been August, with east winds, that would change.


This is a turn of logs being YARDED up the hill. Again, it is in a tightly spaced stand. Logs are pulled across the hill into the corridor, and then up the hill. A poor job of falling and/or a bad rigging crew can cause a lot of damage.

Again, in this part of the world, timber is not topped. Suburbian yard trees are, but that's now frowned upon as a conifer will turn a branch into a new top, and the area where the branch comes out of the tree bole will be weaker, and more prone to blowing off than an uncut top. Or it will even become a multi-topped yard tree and be even more unsafe. Never ever have I heard, or seen, an entire timber stand topped. I've worked in WA, OR, CA, AZ and even WI.

 

[slowp]

A grapple skidder almost at the landing.

 

[ericm979]

The link is broken for me but a quick search found a chinese video of a machine that's cutting branches off trees with a laser from the ground. I could use that- we had a freak heavy snow that broke a lot of trees and branches and half broke a lot more. There's widow makers and future fire ladders all over my woods now. Many of the trees are too small to climb and the broken stuff is too far up to reach with a pole saw. That laser branch cutter is the only thing I have seen that could handle them. Fire would be a concern, in fire season anyhow.

I also found a video about cutting logs with a laser. I could see that being useful in mills- narrow kerf, never needs sharpening and it won't go dull if there's a bit of metal in the log. Also there's plenty of power and the heavy equipment to run the laser is stationary.

Lasers could also be run on feller bunchers instead of blades. I don't see them replacing chain saws for felling by humans though. The battery tech to run a laser powerful enough to cut trees just isn't there or even close. If they ever were, you could do directional felling just like with a saw, by making the same cuts.

My forestry days are a while back but I have never heard of or seen forests being topped on purpose, including when I worked for USFS in Wyoming. Trees are either harvested or not harvested.

 

[slowp]

Typical terrain for SW Warshington. This is after yarding was completed in this setting. Note the bit of damage to the leave tree.