learning to climb on gaffs

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i would only be inline with the axis of the hinge (behind), when i'm sure it is good wood and it is going the other way. i guess i top diffrent than i cut trees down, the top is younger and more 'elastic' to me (thinking mostly of pines). And some stuff size and lean wise i can have total control over. i know i'm not no hot shot, tree jockey, getting 'cheap' thrills (Oxymoronic usage?) that i don't want any more pull twanging crossways across the top of the spar as possible, so i try to release with minimum force at the strongest point (to me) of the spar (down into it rather than across).

i try to get the top to release early, forced by its own balance, pulling line, sometimes pushing to the target. i cut a hinge in almost 1/2 way then eliminate wood from the sides of the backcut, but before i make the finishing backcut, just leaving a narrower block of fibre leading from the back of the tree to the center of the hinge(all the way back to the most leveraged position agianst the hinge, providing most security from top falling into hinge.). Then i want my 020 for most of them, i look at the combination of the speed of the saw, and the reduced fibre to cut in the final, releasing back cut as setting myself up with as high a speed coming thru as possible. i can always make the cut go slower by backing off the trigger, now i have set up the conditions for the most wideband control of speed possible, by tweaking the ceiling of the speed end of the band. So i take that into the backcut, right in line with the 2 pre-backcuts on the sides

Then, if i can i try to get the top to launch and seperate @1:00 or so, i think that the resultant kick goes down through the pillar strength of the spar at that point, rather than the spar seperating as it flows through angles that would push, pull (from 2:00 - 4:00) with their 'opposite and opposing reactions' across the most leveraged point against the tree's anchoring. i don't have to deal with Rog.'s anti spinning efforts to save lumber though.

Also, i feel that when it launches early it has minimum force, than after it has traveled on hinge some, gathering momentum. On the ground, when i make a tree hang on a hinge longer it depends more on the stump for anchoring. So i wouldn't try to 3:1 leverage a tree really slowly over that had a weakened root structure. Also in rigging the more i use the holding wood of the hinge for manipulation and control of the load, the farther out i come from my final finishing cut (on trims) so that the deeper disturbed fibre doesn't flow ito the parent connection (at finishing cut). So, to me it would follow,that the more you use a hinge, the more it pulls etc. on it's anchor, as it ushers the load. So if i'm standing on said anchor, i try to think of it like that.

So i try to tip the top over to where i know it is committed as i start the final backcut, and then fly threw cut, with the fastest saw, going through the least amount of fibre possible, getting a clean seperation. Thinking of balanced tops, from side to side across the hinge.

i think at that point i am at minimum force, delivered down the srongest axis of the spar (down rather than across). All situations don't fit that, but that is what i try to draw to. At any rate, IMAO having the backcut set with minumum fibre for release and fast saw, should give you most speed control to release the top as you see fit, and play with all these theories, finding what yu have a feel and understanding for.

i try to take that minimimized force, and any 'recoil', and try to 'hang in the air' seperately from the spar with my body (any body at rest.........), and slow down, or dampen any kick in the spar with my arm(s) and puny body. When i get this all going right, that is about nil (the 'recoil'!).

Sometimes on tops i will use a kerf facecut/notch, or kerf with slight lip cut off at the end (to allow a definite amount of easier tipping to face), and with enough of it's own or our provided pull, make my pre-backcuts from the side and fly through the final backcut when i'm ready to make the kerf slam shut and the top to jump out farther, maybe over flowers, or over a fence and down hill to the truck! In some situations (keep ground guys out of the way, help there pull etc.), when everything is right i will help push from behind. In this 'hopping' procedure, sometimes the more force the better (Don't let'em flex the spar over near you), so i might help with behind push for max. jump.

I've down it Brian's way too, kinda like a timing of catching the kickback and setting it against the recoil, quite a touch sometimes! But, i seem to find the minimum recoil in the sizes i deal with from tipping it forward what i have to, and flying thru the wood immediately, for that total clean release,with no "kickback' , like that you get when you drop a branch or log straight,flat down with an immediate, timed release, flying through the cut.
 
I see your point, Ken. Your pic makes it easy to see that a 2 o'clock release will generate the most sideways force against the spar. But when it reaches closer to a horozontal, the vast majority of energy is heading toward the ground, not back against the spar. I find that the top falls away from the spar without recoil when you finish the separation at about a 80*-90* angle.
Either way, releasing the top at a 2 o'clock profile will give you a heckuva ride. Earlier or later is better.
 
You've all given me a lot to watch and think about. I used to remove a lot of Ponderosa pines-usually green. My SOP was to climb skinning the spar on the way up and cut the top out at about 4" diameter. I frequently used a step cut (scored the side it was going to go and then cut from the back slightly above the score) to jump the top out or hinge it over with no notch to keep it in close to the trunk. Neither way seemed to give me any extreme whipping-I did wave around a little but wind was more of a problem up there than a Christmas tree sized top.
 
By the way Ryan. After 30 years in the biz I'm learning to climb on gaffs too. Thanks for starting the thread.
 
I was typing earlier and missed your question about the 019T. I am in the minority on the site but i really like the 019T. RB is a thoughtful wise and courteous fellow but he and I disagree on this one!:p
 
Originally posted by Ryan Willock
how was he killed? how much expereance:confused:

Peter Donzelli Dies
Peter S. Donzelli '89 was killed Aug. 29 in an accident working as a tree surgeon for a local company. He was an avid arborist who was helping to prepare a lightning-scarred tree for removal.

Donzelli received his B.S. (1989), M.S. (1991), and Ph.D. (1995) from the Department of Mechanical Engineering, Aeronautical Engineering, and Mechanics at Rensselaer. He served as a postdoctoral research associate in the Scientific Computation Research Center (SCOREC) from 1995 until 1997, when he joined the department of biomedical engineering as research assistant professor. Donzelli had recently left Rensselaer to pursue opportunities with software companies that focus on finite element modules of soft tissue.

"Peter was first and foremost a caring individual with the highest personal standards," said Robert Spilker, chair of biomedical engineering. "He was a pleasure and inspiration to work with and always devoted his considerable energies and talents to his projects and interactions with colleagues and students. In his years at Rensselaer, Peter made significant contributions to bioengineering research in human joints."

Memorial contributions may be made to the Peter S. Donzelli Memorial Fund of the Biomedical Engineering Department at Rensselaer.

Nick again.....This man made monumental steps in the process of rigging for our industry. Take a look at these links (a little slow - the files have to cross the Atlantic):
PDF http://www.arborist.de/pd_98-friction.pdf
PDF http://www.arborist.de/pd_98-friction.pdf - my favorite, partly because Stanley Longstaff was involved :)
http://www.arborist.de/pd_engineering_conzepts.htm
http://www.arborist.de/pd_saving_friction.htm
When the Euc Man Met the Doctor (P.D.'s obituary by Don Blair)
http://www.arborist.de/peter_donzellis_work.htm

Nickrosis
 
When i commented on MM's comments, having to agree with him, that is what i was wondering if y'all were doing, waiting for the pull toward the ground directly for release, so that the energy went down thru the spar rather than across.

i also kinda think, at one point the spar is being pushed back by the top, then if seperation hasn't taken place yet the top starts to pull the spar forward rather than back, but still across the spar rather than down into it. i kinda think y'all are saying you wait for the top to go thru these positions of it's movements, and releasing it after 4o'clock?
 
That's my understanding, Spider. Dwayne Neustater teaches that technique as a topping option. (using a greater than 90 degree face, maybe 120 degrees).

I see the advantage of the wide face as a kind of "sliding off" release, in addition to the one you mention. I think there is also a lower chance of splitting the spar on release. Have to admit I haven't used it much, though, too uncertain about how it's going to land.:confused:



Tom: didn't Dr. Peter's tree fail from the initial pushing-back on the spar, as the top began to lean, not from the whip after release?
 
Isn`t it odd that there doesn`t appear to be a standard for dropping a top on the (generally speaking) perfect tree?
Everyone seems to be doing their own thing and I`m not seeing any kind of standard cutting process like we have for felling a tree from the ground.
 
FB,

There is some disagreement on exactly how the tree failed when Pete cut the top out. Whipping or pulling the top, really doesn't mean much, my friend is gone. Being very careful of loading the spar is the more important lesson for me. Also, the way that people are connected and the effect that some people have was evident in the hours and weeks after Pete died.
*****************

There seems to be a bit of disagreement on how to take the tops out of spars or the tips off limbs. Get out your coppy of the workbook that accompanies The Art and Science of Practical Rigging, ASPrN, and read pages 136-138. If you don't have the workbook or video set, they can both be purchased seperately, from the ISA. This program's outline was written, mostly, by Pete Donzelli. This is another of the "Must Have" books and videos. One of the best educational series available. If you're an ISA member you get a discount.

I'm not going to transcribe the text. To summarize, they recommend a face larger than 45 degrees. Get the book and videos, you deserve it.

Tom
 
cool. is there any why i can buy the arbormast tapes one or two at a time??? i can't currently afford to buy the whole set right now:(
 
You've got spring which is the most action, most people calling, the "I need you here yesterday" people. So, when you can, you talk people into dormant pruning or at least waiting until later.

In summer, the calls have slowed down a lot, and you're catching up on things. With a long winter ahead, though, you're thinking of how to stay busy.

With fall, you've got clean-ups, odd jobs, some regular customers, but generally much slower than earlier.

W i n t e r. It gets cold around me, but the work must go on. We try to book enough work to have 4 days a week of dormant pruning, which is usually the best time of year for pruning anyways. We plow snow too, which helps.

Nickrosis
 
This topping discussion goes round and round. For a long time I used a humbolt type cut with the thought that it would help the top slip off the face if I accidentially cut the hinge. As a result of many discussions on the topic I have tried every type of cut -except the plunge. And find that a big fat wide open face gives me less movement. I do quite a few tall skinney(60ft +) pines so I am no stranger to a tree swaying back and forth after I take the top out.
My advice on topping a tree.... Go higher into the thin stuff, if you are not comfy with the height keep playing around until you are. Make your cuts perfect! Don't kill the saw the moment you see the top moving, you need to establish a good hinge, stay in the cut until you do. Use a webbing strap as a safty girthed around the tree, they always make me feel more secure. Use your center attachment on your saddle instead of the side d's, if you do kick out the center attachment will help your flipline bite faster than the wider attachemnt you would have at your side d's. Use a pull line in the top of the tree and tell the groundies not to pull until your cut is perfect and you signal. Tops are fun, but be confident that you know what you are doing -this is the most dangerous part of taking a tree down. I never feel as secure on spikes as I do on a rope.
Greg
 
I just bought a pair of Bashlin climbers from a local dealer. Got 'em home and realized there was no upper pads included. Dealer siad they didn't come with upper pads.. for $220 they should have .. don't you think? So then I checked in American Arborist's catalogue.. there they were ...Aluminum Bashlin's $220..complete.
Local dealer swears he's telling the truth.. the upper pads are extra. I was goiong to (and did) get the B'ham velcso wraps anyhow.. Do you think he was gaggin' me?..
I like him and he does have a few tricks up his sleave.
Maybe I should have tried the Geckos from Sherrill. Would have actually been cheaper. Anybody using Gecko's?
God Bless,
Daniel
 
i looked at the gekos before i bought the buckinghams but didn't know wheirther or not they would be safe on a pine. i had thought about useing a webbing sling before but didn't know if it was a good idea or not:angel:
 
Originally posted by Ryan Willock
is this typically a slow time of year for tree work???

No way. This is always our busiest time, right up till November or so.
 

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