Locust woes

[Gopher]

Hello everyone; it has been ages since my last post. Perhaps I should get out of the trees and into the office? Nah!

Attached are a few of the pictures I took Monday while examining a 33" dbh honeylocust tree for a client. From the ground, it appeared that the two cables were broken, and that the crack between the two leads fresh.

Upon entering the canopy, I discovered that the previous owner (Randy has been there for 14 years) cabled the tree (around the outside, of course!) and decided that it would be a good idea to use a car floor mat folded three times on each side to protect the cable. The job lasted for him, but now twenty-some years later, we have a real issue.

I was hoping to find a slightly weakened lead due to the cable placement; instead, I found a tree about ready to come apart because the rubber mat on the south side is about 75 to 80% included. The two stems at the point of the mat/cable attachment are 17 and 19 inches in diameter, respectfully.

To complicate matters, the tree's owner knew at some point the tree would probably need to be removed, so he planted two sycamore trees (they are doing nicely, a number of cherry trees (in need of much structural pruning) and a basswood quite near the locust.

Would you be so kind as to offer up your two cents worth? I really believe it needs to come down, and I am planning to do it via a crane as there is plenty of room to drop major pieces past the young trees and house that surround it.

Thank you in advance,

 

[Doctor Dave]

Hello everyone; it has been ages since my last post. Perhaps I should get out of the trees and into the office? Nah!

Attached are a few of the pictures I took Monday while examining a 33" dbh honeylocust tree for a client. From the ground, it appeared that the two cables were broken, and that the crack between the two leads fresh.

Upon entering the canopy, I discovered that the previous owner (Randy has been there for 14 years) cabled the tree (around the outside, of course!) and decided that it would be a good idea to use a car floor mat folded three times on each side to protect the cable. The job lasted for him, but now twenty-some years later, we have a real issue.

I was hoping to find a slightly weakened lead due to the cable placement; instead, I found a tree about ready to come apart because the rubber mat on the south side is about 75 to 80% included. The two stems at the point of the mat/cable attachment are 17 and 19 inches in diameter, respectfully.

To complicate matters, the tree's owner knew at some point the tree would probably need to be removed, so he planted two sycamore trees (they are doing nicely, a number of cherry trees (in need of much structural pruning) and a basswood quite near the locust.

Would you be so kind as to offer up your two cents worth? I really believe it needs to come down, and I am planning to do it via a crane as there is plenty of room to drop major pieces past the young trees and house that surround it.

Thank you in advance,

Why not cable the tree the right way now?

 

[treeseer]

Why not cable the tree the right way now?

DocDave, how will the long-term prognosis be if inclusion/girdling is 75%?

GopherDave, has the other stem swallowed the car mat?
'
Trees swallowing car mats. Sheesh.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

If the mat is just included, and the cable is not girdling, and the homeowner wants to keep the tree. Maybe cabling the correct way is the way to go?!

 

[Gopher]

Locust again

Thanks for comments... I would like to properly cable the tree, but I am afraid the integrity of the large co-dominant stems have been compromised because the cable and mats are inside the wood. In this situation, not only is there a poor qualty union (the lowest one) to be concerned with, there are also the two weak points artificially made.

I am not sure how much strength loss is involved due to the girdling effect of the cable/mat contraption. Since the weight of the tree is pulling on the contiguous wood that is on the inside of the stem and pressing down on the "voided" portion, it so far has held. If we add some tension from the other side (uphill side), will it now fail with different pressures from the other side?

Cost to cure also has to come into play. If the total cost to prune and cable is anywhere near the cost to remove AND we have not reduced the risk ENOUGH, then removal should be done.

Where I need some help is on wood strength at these two inclusion points. It seems to me that there is a great percentage of strength loss, and it has compromised any ability to cable the two sides together. If one goes above the points (which one should to adequately cable), then the risk of failure at the mat locations just increased. If one cables and braces below that point, well, there still exists the risk of failure at the mats. With so much of the canopy above these two points, it seems the mats have reduced the tree to a very high risk one, with the target being a 130 year old brick farm house not easily replaced not to mention the human loss potential.

Thanks for all comments - keep them coming.

 

[murphy4trees]

Locust si strong wood... but there is not much science to help you on this one... Prune and cable???? Maybe... but how would you sleep afterwards???
Like any structurally compromised tree you have to determine the chance of failure... which is hard to do here, and the risk to property/life should the tree fail...

Intuition helps.... Mine says take that tree down!!! And you could present your thoughts to the customer and make the choice together..... If they really want to keep the tree, make them sign some well worded release..

 

[Doctor Dave]

Thanks for comments... I would like to properly cable the tree, but I am afraid the integrity of the large co-dominant stems have been compromised because the cable and mats are inside the wood. In this situation, not only is there a poor qualty union (the lowest one) to be concerned with, there are also the two weak points artificially made.

I am not sure how much strength loss is involved due to the girdling effect of the cable/mat contraption. Since the weight of the tree is pulling on the contiguous wood that is on the inside of the stem and pressing down on the "voided" portion, it so far has held. If we add some tension from the other side (uphill side), will it now fail with different pressures from the other side?

Cost to cure also has to come into play. If the total cost to prune and cable is anywhere near the cost to remove AND we have not reduced the risk ENOUGH, then removal should be done.

Where I need some help is on wood strength at these two inclusion points. It seems to me that there is a great percentage of strength loss, and it has compromised any ability to cable the two sides together. If one goes above the points (which one should to adequately cable), then the risk of failure at the mat locations just increased. If one cables and braces below that point, well, there still exists the risk of failure at the mats. With so much of the canopy above these two points, it seems the mats have reduced the tree to a very high risk one, with the target being a 130 year old brick farm house not easily replaced not to mention the human loss potential.

Thanks for all comments - keep them coming.

If it was an historic tree, or one with strong emotional attachment by a wealthy owner, the risk could be reduced sufficiently. You could erect a steel framework and cable it to that. I'm not kidding---it is an option--but it's hardly likely that the owner wants to spend 20 grand to keep a common, non-historic tree with a floor mat sticking out of it.

 

[treeseer]

Where I need some help is on wood strength at these two inclusion points.

Well that is the crux isn't it.

1. Measure the circumferences at the carmat places.

2. Measure the distances girdled, after removing what you can from the edges of the strangled areas.

3. Closely inspect for decay and cracks. Rubber mallet, magnifying glass, icepick are handy.

4. Report back to AS HQ. 10-4?

"you could present your thoughts to the customer and make the choice together."
Murph if you'd read the Oct Arborist News, you would not be laying your head so readily on the guillotine of liability. The arborist objectively lays out the options, the owner decides. Instinct may have a small part to play in risk assessment, AFTER the data are in. My instinct is to look real hard at the tree, with and list all the reasonable steps that could be taken to make the tree safer.

"First, define your assignment so that you and the owner understand the level of detail that you will be going to, and what form the written report will take. Second, state your limitations in a written “disclaimer”. Unless you have a big “S” on your chest, you cannot see inside the tree or under the tree. You cannot foresee what storms will be testing the tree’s strength, so you cannot guarantee its safety for a week or even for a day. Finally, make it clear that risk is always present, and **it is the owners of the tree who are responsible for the decisions affecting the tree.**"

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It looks to me that the defect adds too many variables to quantify loss of strength.

Failure would result in damage to the house, risk fo injury and loss of the replacement trees.

Cable and brace for the long term does not seem to be a prudent option. Especially since the client allready knew that the tree would need to go.

Does the client have sufficient funds to do the removal now?

Does one stem have sufficient integrity to provide fail-safe cabling for the short term if he needs to save up for the removal? Would reduction/aesthetic partial removal help this choice?

 

[treeseer]

It looks to me that the defect adds too many variables to quantify loss of strength.

Looks can be deceiving. That's a hasty judgment based on a picture. But it may be right.

Does one stem have sufficient integrity to provide fail-safe cabling for the short term if he needs to save up for the removal? Would reduction/aesthetic partial removal help this choice?

Excellent Questions.

 

[(WLL)]

Hello everyone; it has been ages since my last post. Perhaps I should get out of the trees and into the office? Nah!

Attached are a few of the pictures I took Monday while examining a 33" dbh honeylocust tree for a client. From the ground, it appeared that the two cables were broken, and that the crack between the two leads fresh.

Upon entering the canopy, I discovered that the previous owner (Randy has been there for 14 years) cabled the tree (around the outside, of course!) and decided that it would be a good idea to use a car floor mat folded three times on each side to protect the cable. The job lasted for him, but now twenty-some years later, we have a real issue.

I was hoping to find a slightly weakened lead due to the cable placement; instead, I found a tree about ready to come apart because the rubber mat on the south side is about 75 to 80% included. The two stems at the point of the mat/cable attachment are 17 and 19 inches in diameter, respectfully.

To complicate matters, the tree's owner knew at some point the tree would probably need to be removed, so he planted two sycamore trees (they are doing nicely, a number of cherry trees (in need of much structural pruning) and a basswood quite near the locust.

Would you be so kind as to offer up your two cents worth? I really believe it needs to come down, and I am planning to do it via a crane as there is plenty of room to drop major pieces past the young trees and house that surround it.
:angry2: I WOULD FIND THE COMPANY THAT INSTALLED THAT CRAP AND HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT MESS TREE SHOULD BE REMOVED WITH CRANE TOMORROW GET GOOD LAWYER AND GET THE:monkey: COMPANY TO PAY FOR LARGE LOCUST TRANSPLANTED A LITTLE FURTHER FROM HOUSE ALL AT THE EXPENSE OF THE :monkey:COMPANY THAT CAUSED THIS MESS.:angry2:

 

[(WLL)]

DocDave, how will the long-term prognosis be if inclusion/girdling is 75%?

GopherDave, has the other stem swallowed the car mat?
'
Trees swallowing car mats. Sheesh.

HAY TREESEER, DID THIS HOME-OWNER GET WHAT HE PAID FOR?

 

[rbtree]

:angry2: I WOULD FIND THE COMPANY THAT INSTALLED THAT CRAP AND HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT MESS TREE SHOULD BE REMOVED WITH CRANE TOMORROW GET GOOD LAWYER AND GET THE:monkey: COMPANY TO PAY FOR LARGE LOCUST TRANSPLANTED A LITTLE FURTHER FROM HOUSE ALL AT THE EXPENSE OF THE :monkey:COMPANY THAT CAUSED THIS MESS.:angry2:

Read the post, the work was done by the previous owner...likely he did it himself.

The tree doesn't look like an immediate threat, relax a bit maybe...


And hit the caps lock.....

 

[rbtree]

Would you be so kind as to offer up your two cents worth? I really believe it needs to come down, and I am planning to do it via a crane as there is plenty of room to drop major pieces past the young trees and house that surround it.

Thank you in advance,

I think it oughta come down as well. But it doesn't look like it's an imminent risk. Why use a crane if there's room to drop big pieces? If you don't feel safe climbing way above the weak spots, then how about guying the leaders together?

 

[Doctor Dave]

Speaking of botched cable jobs in black locust...

I just did my health/hazard assessment of a big one (3 1/2 ft. diam, 95 ft. tall, forks to 7 trunks at 10 ft.); wouldn't you know, it was cabled at about 40 ft., between three of the four big upright trunks. The guy probably did it from a bucket truck, given that nothing was pruned above that point. He used lags, 3/8 in. cable, and u-clamps---there was no tension the set-up. He also sent a cable in two directions from the same lag. Four things wrong with it: should have used through-bolts, thicker cable, proper cable attachment, boxed all four trunks together, and braced it at the bottom. Luckily, the tree is quite sound, only problem some moderate strip-kill here and there from borers and the narrow crotches. The four near-vertical trunks should be cabled and braced for "peace of mind", as they are starting to grow together with included bark.

I know the tree guy who did it; he's the high bid in the area, and I don't get along with him. He's about to hate me more when I write my report and the owner get's back to him. He did the job three years ago when the present owner bought the house. He did good work elsewhere on the property (although he should have sent a climber into the big locust to thin/deadwood the upper half of the tree). Politics! How do you avoid it?

 

[jomoco]

Three things

Trees have an amazing ability to heal themselves, particularly with a little help from a skilled arborist.

If the decision is made to try and save the tree, I would suggest three things.

Once a rope is installed to hold the tree together temporarily, install a cable with two through bolts above the botched cabling attempt.

Drill and rod the split below the defective or included cable.

Then use a very sharp chisel to cut the include cable in three spots on each stem, six vertical cuts in all.

These simple steps will allow the tree to recover and repair itself over the coming years.

Do not try to remove the old cable, just sever it incrementally with your chisel and leave it there. That's your best hope for saving the tree in my opinion.

jomoco

 

[treeseer]

He's about to hate me more when I write my report and the owner get's back to him. He did the job three years ago when the present owner bought the house. He did good work elsewhere on the property (although he should have sent a climber into the big locust to thin/deadwood the upper half of the tree). Politics! How do you avoid it?

Document, Document, Document. Cite the Support Standards and BMPs as you comment on the cabling job. Be very specific. There is exact wording in there about hardware, and about pruning. Quote it, objectively.

Don't be judgmental--you wouldn't want someone blasting your work. Leave the guy some wiggle room. Most arbos will express appreciation when you quote standards and bmps that they did not quite meet. You'll hear stuff like "Oh thanks; I was going by the old edition", etc. Just be as nice as you would want them to be if roles were reversed.

I like jomoco's plan to remove segments of girdling material. Key is to preserve continuous strips of bark. I've often wondered about the potential fro bridge grafting in these cases, but I lack the expertise to try it.

 

[Gopher]

If it is removed....

JPS is right on this one; if it is determined to be removed, a crane will be the way to go. The replacement trees are about under the drip-line, and from the picture it appears there is room to lower pieces, but there is not that much room.

When one adds up the value of the replacement trees (5 of them) that have some decent size, the crane is the most economical tool. Remember as well, climber safety is more important than any tree, and removing the tree in four or five picks will have the tree done in shorter time period.

I will be talking to the owner today or tomorrow; I am going to share our dialogue with him. I already have mentioned a number of courses of action. After being in the tree, my gut (and measurements) tell me to remove it.

I will however let the client make this final call. I will present estimates for a number of scenerios and if he asks, tell him what I would do if it were mine, and go from there.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The pictures don't show any damage that would call for a removal. In fact I don't see why the cables were installed in the first place.
There's no reason that tree can't be made safe with new cables, synthetic or steel.
Remove what ever you can of the old cables, and re-cable up higher.
Trees can completely grow around a girdling cable and compression on the outside of that cable can cause the cambium to reconnect. You can see that already happening in one of the pictures.
If you're really worried, you could cable and do some crown reduction work. From what I see, a good crown cleaning is all it needs.
If you wanted to try some cutting edge stuff, you could follow Bob Wulcowitz's experimental stuff with making small injuries, in order to start some bridge, compression, graft type healing. The idea being to make small injuries on each side of the cable to get some callus wood growing enough to touch each other. Then once the two compress enough, they bridge the cable with a new layer of cambium. The thin bark and undifferentiated calls of callus, grafts much more readily than wood with thick mature bark.

 

[treeseer]

"After being in the tree, my gut (and measurements) tell me to remove it."

Dave, can we see your measurements?

I don't want to see your gut, which is the last thing to consult, if ever, anyway. Arboriculture is supposed to be a blend of science and art, but if you are making decisions based on intestinal vibrations, you are using neither. In terms of risk assessment, listening to instinct before analyzing data borders on hack work.

To pit it bluntly.:help: