lowballing a job

[TREETX]

I can so relate with DDM. You know you are the 4th person. They are looking for a commodity and if they say yes, you know you are screwed.

If I know I am # 4 on the phone, I tell them I am not coming out because I am not going to be the cheapest because I operate with a higher level of customer service and higher standards. Throws people off but if they say you should still come out then you know they are somewhat qualified.

Like JPS was saying and greg too, the challenge is to move from a commodity based product to a value based/value added product.

Amen to what Daniel said as well. It is not a crime to make a profit on a job well done. Some people treat you like it is. I work hard, I should be able to go skiing too.

Glad to see that nobody clicked "tried to lowball but didn't get the job"

 

[Greg]

Tie- forget it, but look professional. If I am just going out to give estimates I will wear clean jeans (not work jeans) and a polo type short sleeved shirt, with my work boots on (they don't look too rough). If I have to tromp through some mud I'm ok, and with the collared shirt you still look professional.

My favorite climbing clothes are a comfy pair of levis and an old Greatful dead t-shirt. -not great first impression clothes.
Greg

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I've put the concert shirts away, and use the limbwalker shirt as my "uniform". No company name...hmm this is a new thread

 

[DDM]

Murphy Im not saying i get every Job What i was stating was sometimes i miss an obstacle or an aerial Danger and that when i give the price and they Jump on it then i have to figure out where i made the over site.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Hey Dan, what about these two service drops running through the crown?

Two of the guys I work with frequently say "we can work around them" to save the bother of calling for a temp disconnect, with take twice the time riggint the stuff out small.

 

[murphy4trees]

My thinking on underbidding is that it's all in my head, not so much in what I see or don't see when looking at a tree. I have to believe I Am worth it, the service is worth it and the customer can spend it before I can sell it. I was talking to a another local tree service owner about this idea.. he was a kind of mentor for me 20 years ago... So I was telling him how well business was and what it had grossed last year..
Turns out he had just completed a job (including excavating, landscaping, stone work etc) for one of the richest people in the world, which cost as much as my annual gross. I just can't imagine someone spending that kind of money... So since I can't imagine it.. I can't sell it.
So if you raise your prices by 25%.. when the unforseen happens, and that's a constant in this business, ... no problem.. you've got the room. I hate working when the money is tight.. it creates a kind of stress that is toxic to all, including the trees.
I admit this is an easier philosophy to work by when the economy is hot and the phone is ringing off the hook..
Another way of looking at it is... when you are busy.. it's a sign that your prices are too low... if your not busy what can you change to bring in more work?
God Bless All,
Daniel

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Originally posted by murphy4trees

Turns out he had just completed a job (including excavating, landscaping, stone work etc) for one of the richest people in the world, which cost as much as my annual gross.
Daniel

But what was his margine, net/net, on the job.

 

[Nickrosis]

Europeans dress so much better. That may be a contributing factor for why the ladies look so amazingly attractive..... No sweatshirts or crap like that.

It's a general societal thing that the Americans have tended to lower and lower their own self-image which negatively affects the service level. And don't kid yourself - we have a class system of our own.

Dressing a little better might not be a bad thing. If you're already wearing a uniform, you're probably just fine. If you're out in a ripped t-shirt and oil-stained jeans, you're opposing the professional image we're trying to present. We shouldn't be wearing 3-piece suits - office workers should - because you'd destroy it after a day on the job.

Overall, an improvement in the dress code of US society would be part of the prescription for some of our ills.

Nickrosis

 

[Jock]

I hate shirt and ties , I feel more comfortable in work clothes....ask my wife, I only do the dress thing for quoting purposes only, mainly because the residential customers i cater for are a bit stuck up, and over the years I've learned that this is what they like....anyway I figure you know the type i'm talking about...Jock..(I'm not posh, honest)

 

[FBerkel]

I think one needs to distinguish between "bidding" and "selling". It may help you move up into a better educated group of clients to convince people that you're offering a higher level of service, i.e. better tree care. If they're not willing to listen to what it is that you'll do better, then maybe you don't want to work for them. Of couse, you then have to back it up with your work, or you're going to be regarded as a slick type.

I've got no problem with being the first guy, because in my experience maybe twenty or more percent of potential customers will hire the first guy, as long as the price seems reasonable to them. Some seem impressed by how quickly you responded to their call, others just don't have time for, or feel like bothering with additional walk-throughs.

But I think it comes down to choosing your clientel: do you want to work for types who shop based on lowest price? Admittedly, this sounds elitist, and I think it's important to give fair prices to little old ladies and decent working types who can't afford to pay
a premium. So you figure out a way to work for them as well, by accepting the occasional lower grossing day, or maybe reducing the job to the most crucial elements, say deadwooding and cabling. And definitely, sometimes you want to get you're foot in the door, and bid low to insure it. But if you focus on quality in your business and in your work, it comes through when you're selling work, and many people will opt to pay you more than the next guy.

Just a little philosophizing; I know it doesn't always work in the real world.

--Fred

 

[Nickrosis]

It certainly makes a case for having repeat business - we've kept a crew busy all spring/summer/fall working for 6 adjoining properties. That's awesome, if you ask me, and I'd like to make a habit it out of that kind of work.

A state contract of seeding along a highway for miles was a boon for the landscaping crew - T&M. Bigger contracts are the kinds of things that reduce costs for travel and clerical work.

To answer JPS's question before he asks it of me.... Big contracts that are broken down into individual components make it easier for the person estimating to reduce error. If you have landclearing here, pruning here, PHC plan here, landscaping here, snowplowing there, you can determine a final price and reduce the chances of mistakenly lowballing the entire job.

Nickrosis

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

What was I going to ask? I'm all for big, long term contracts. that is what my philosophy of clients is.

I will usualy break any bid down, even if it is pruning on a single property.

This tree that tree, describe what to do to each one.

Cable this cable, this remove that.

No we don't install gorund cover, but i know people that do. Call Jim at Leaf Land, he is an L.A. who knows plants.

We can install some small shade tolerant trees over there...

Another option is for you to give me a budget, and we can then do as much as possible in one day.

if we go 400 more i can bring in another climber and get XX more done for in a day....

 

[Nickrosis]

Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn
What was I going to ask?

"But what was his margine, net/net, on the job."

It's the bottom line that matters, but sometimes just having the cash flowing helps (as long as you aren't operating negatively).

Nickrosis

 

[Reed]

All great points, thanks for sharing.

I admire exceptional talent and skill, not too much of that anymore. If you can continue to follow your own preferences, please uphold yourself to them - Berkel touched on the lower income clients on occassion, I think it's important we all have some tolerance for that end of our work. Nickrosis, I know you're on a path to greatness, you're extremely gifted for a person of your age and your family business is a fine example of quality in the industry but please keep open for some exceptions when they occur - time to time an 'ol lady will need help, or a black family that struggled for years to get that home bought but live paycheck to paycheck still.

Being I am reduced to take-downs, it's fairly black and white. That's what I'm after I guess, expecially after years of trial and error involved in disease work. I'll never get rich nor do I aspire to, but being able to purchase new tires or a battery when necessary is fundamental, I also love this work so much that I've often found myself helping friends for nothing more than a home cooked meal, as long as nothing else had come ringing my phone.
There's something to be said about "soul" work, I believe it pays us something no paycheck could provide.

If we sit around and out-bid ourselves because we can't tolerate a few bucks below our set tolerances and there's no activity because of this, it might be a good thing to climb anyway - that broken limb over the 'ol lady's kitchen. Even the hack and stack foreigner with the ladder and the pick-up truck won't often work that request but I think we're more than that.

Out here I compete against some truely wicked and unfair business people - one well known and advertised service actually has 2nd mortgages and mechanic's leans filed at most sites. With disease epidemics forcing work, the demand is great and not many are requests to simply make the place look better, but remove true and dangerous hazards. I don't like to think I undermine sencere businesses, especially when none exist but my requirements for pay are certainly less than the outfit that invested $200,000 in gear and slick ads and pays it's workers slave wage.

As long as I cover my costs (mostly that's rare) and provide expert service, make the customer happy and property safe, and I get to exercise my skill and the kids get fed and the bills paid, I'm elated but I get lazy too, I need to start advertising again. That part I hate.

Keep up the good work and keep the excellence flowing, America need's it badly.