Major Tree Issue & What to look for in a Pro?

[treeseer]

Defect + Target = Hazard

And what does "Hazard" mean, a responsibility to act or a need to remove?

Winnie the Pooh ate all my honey, but I'll look for some molasses.

can anyone explain how intertwined branches add to risk, when they may be providing necessary support?

o and are we clear that sapsucker holes are not a risk factor here, despite the word of that "experienced professional" ?

$1300 to trim a maple tree? If it wasn't so rainy I would be in Seattle tomorrow. Has anyone assessed the strength loss from and the extent of the decay?

How'd the insurance thing go--any help there?

There, sweet enough?

 

[mikemouse]

I'm a new home owner and just had an Oak tree limbed up. I was fortuanate to know an arborist/faller. The roots are in the water main and the neighbor said it broke them a few years ago and limbs ALMOST on the electric lines.. This was not on my home inspection report. The trees will grow back if they are healthy but it will take a little patcience and time. Mine are ugly too, but look better every day.

P.S. I only had enough for a trim not a falling!

 

[Dixie1]

I'm a new home owner and just had an Oak tree limbed up. I was fortuanate to know an arborist/faller. The roots are in the water main and the neighbor said it broke them a few years ago and limbs ALMOST on the electric lines.. This was not on my home inspection report. The trees will grow back if they are healthy but it will take a little patcience and time. Mine are ugly too, but look better every day.

P.S. I only had enough for a trim not a falling!

Question...is this true or not? do trees roots "attack" water/sewer lines? i thought that if the line already had a weak point or break in it, then yes the roots can enter therefore causing more damage. but do they really cause the initial damage? i have heard conflicting theories. i have seen them grow through irrigation heads and bust them up, but the plastic on those is VERY thin. just curious.

 

[rb_in_va]

Question...is this true or not? do trees roots "attack" water/sewer lines? i thought that if the line already had a weak point or break in it, then yes the roots can enter therefore causing more damage. but do they really cause the initial damage? i have heard conflicting theories. i have seen them grow through irrigation heads and bust them up, but the plastic on those is VERY thin. just curious.

It is known fact that tree roots HATE water and sewer lines. Everyone knows that.

 

[Ed Roland]

And what does "Hazard" mean, a responsibility to act or a need to remove?

Winnie the Pooh ate all my honey, but I'll look for some molasses.

A board certified master arborist should know what "hazard" means.

winnie the pooh?

wow

 

[treeseer]

A board certified master arborist should know what "hazard" means.

winnie the pooh?

wow

Hey AA Milne wrote great stuff. Tigger is my role model.

I know that a hazard leads to a responsibility to act, not necessarily basal prune. I was asking to see if you knew. Still not sure. :biggrinbounce2:

$1300 to prune a maple?

 

[Ed Roland]

Hey AA Milne wrote great stuff. Tigger is my role model.

I know that a hazard leads to a responsibility to act, not necessarily basal prune. I was asking to see if you knew. Still not sure. :biggrinbounce2:

I'll go on record with: "hazardous, to signify the risk involved with their presence."

Look, guy. You can not save EVERY damn tree. Sometimes we, as professionals, have to remove them. Sometimes we can preserve them.

But whatever is done, I hope a qualified professional is making the call.

 

[Frimsley]

It's more applicable to the UK market than US, but you can find some advice on how to choose an arborist here, and search for local tree surgeons here.

As for Winnie the Pooh, one of the greatest thinkers on tree risk of all time:

'Supposing a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?'
'Supposing it didn't,' said Pooh, after careful thought.

 

[treeseer]

I'll go on record with: "hazardous, to signify the risk involved with their presence."

That's clear as mud. since every tree has risk involved, every tree is hazardous? what does this mean in terms of action taken?

And what does "Hazard" mean, a responsibility to act, or a need to remove?

 

[Frimsley]

This is really a question of semantics as much as anything else, but it is important that we are clear about the meaning of the terms we use.

In the UK at least there is some pretty definitive guidance available. The Health and Safety Executive, a government agency, give these definitions of hazard and risk in their publication "Five Steps to Risk Assessment"

• a hazard is anything that may cause harm, such as chemicals, electricity,
  working from ladders, an open drawer etc;
• the risk is the chance, high or low, that somebody could be harmed by these
  and other hazards, together with an indication of how serious the harm could
  be.

Applying this to trees, a hazard is the presence of a defect or something that may cause the tree to fail.

The risk is the chance of harm in the event of failure, together with an indication of the level of harm. That is, it combines the chance of failure with the chance of something being hit when failure occurs and the level of damage expected.

In both Matheny and Clarkes method and Quantified Tree Risk Assessment, and indeed several other derived systems, the likelihood of failure (the hazard) is influenced primarily by the defect, the chance of something being hit is based on an assessment of the target and its level of occupancy, and the level of damage likely is assessed by looking at the size of the part expected to fail. Combining these three main factors, the output is a measure of risk.

 

[WA_Homeowner]

Update

I think we found our tree guy. He's a licensed, bonded, certified arborist, has $3 million in insurance, is experienced, and does a lot of work for local cities (yeah, I know they hire incompetent people, but it makes me feel better anyway, for some reason).

He does NOT recommend topping the maple (that's what taking off the dangerous part amounts to), unlike several of the pros who have come out here. He said we could get away with it, and it would make it safer for now, but it would only lead to more expense and likely danger in the future. Removal is a last resort, but given the shape, location, root and trunk rot this tree has, he believes it's our best option.

If we top it now, we'll no doubt have to have someone work on it every few years, and it could present a major problem when we try to sell the house. So, we figure we might as well take care of it now, and focus on the positives of having more sun for the garden, no leaves to rake, fewer worries in storms and happier neighbors.

I've done a lot of research, received many opinions, and this guy's advice seems to jibe with what my impartial sources are saying. Plus, his rate is reasonable ($2400 for removal), he has what seems like the best plan for taking down the pieces without any collateral damage (lowering them on a line to an empty space in our neighbor's yard), and he can get it done very soon (there's no way we're waiting a month or two to address this).

Thanks to everyone who's offered their best advice; I've learned a ton, and sincerely appreciate it! Hopefully we're making the right choice, and it will go beautifully.

 

[appalachianarbo]

it would only lead to more expense and likely danger in the future

Yup, he's right.

If we top it now, we'll no doubt have to have someone work on it every few years, and it could present a major problem when we try to sell the house

Yup, you're right. Topping will invite decay, make an eyesore of your yard, and lower your property value.

focus on the positives

Good.

Good luck with the removal.

By the way, sapsucker holes don't indicate poor tree health...Sounds like those guys were just guessing or trying to scare you into paying them...

 

[WA_Homeowner]

Good luck with the removal.

By the way, sapsucker holes don't indicate poor tree health...Sounds like those guys were just guessing or trying to scare you into paying them...

Thanks, Appalachianarbo!

I think you're absolutely right about that first guy. Good thing I kept getting opinions and bids until I found someone who seemed honest and had a good plan!

We'll probably have this guy go through the cedars with the sapsucker holes to do a quick safety check and thinning (if necessary) while he's out here because there are quite a few dead branches that we can't access with a ladder, and it'll make us feel better when the winds kick up. The tops of the cedars are definitiely browning, and from what I understand, removing some of the dying/dead branches will allow the trees to put energy into making/keeping the live parts healthier, so it's probably a good idea to have everything taken care of now.

 

[Ed Roland]

That's clear as mud. since every tree has risk involved, every tree is hazardous?

ok, yes. Every tree that has a defect and a target would be considered hazardous.

 

[WA_Homeowner]

Do any of you have people sign bids that are also contracts to do the work on the initial consult?

The first guy I got a bid from just called for a "follow up" and when I told him we were probably going to go with someone else, he said I signed the bid, which is also a contract form, and that obligates me to either go with him or pay him $100 to get out of the contract. So, now he says he's going to sue me in small claims court if I don't go with him or pay him the $100. I'm usually really good about reading before signing anything, but that day I wasn't feeling well and had taken painkillers.

I know this is a legal issue, but I wonder if fine print on the bid to make people pay if they have someone else do the work after you've given a free estimate is a standard practice.

Obviously, I'm not going to hire someone who's threatening to sue me! He says he has plenty of other jobs, but if that's the case, then why would he be so concerned about doing this job and waste time and money on a lawyer trying to get $100 out of me?

 

[WA_Homeowner]

Did you pay for the inital consult?

How many people have you had come by to give advice and bid?

No, I didn't pay for the initial consult/estimate, nor was I ever asked to. In fact, this company advertises "FREE ESTIMATES" on its website, in its yellow pages ad and on a tree service referral website. I did not have this guy come out to give me an unbiased professional consult, I specifically asked for an estimate on the work required to make the tree safe.

He's not claiming it was a paid pro consult, either; he's claiming his bid form is a contract to do the work, so when I signed that form, I agreed to hire him or pay $100 if I did not hire him. He knew he was the first bidder, and I was going to get other opinions in the coming weeks before making a decision.

I think I got four bids total. Only the first and last companies gave me written estimates. I'm sure I could have gotten them from the middle two, but they didn't seem very professional and I was fairly certain I wasn't going to use either after hearing their opinions . I just talked to the last bidder (the one we're going to use because he seems to be well qualified and has a good plan), and he said this is the first he's heard of a tree company combining a free estimate and contract like that.

 

[Ed Roland]

Very shady!

 

[ddhlakebound]

Most of the time our customers are just fine with a verbal bid. When anyone asks for a written bid, we use a form to outline the bid, work to be perfomed, an all other details. If they want a written bid, we want a contract to do the work.

It clearly states that when signed, it constitutes a contract, with penalties spelled out for breaking the contract. We don't often use the bid/contract form, but when we do, we ALWAYS point out that signing it makes it a contract.

No, I didn't pay for the initial consult/estimate, nor was I ever asked to. In fact, this company advertises "FREE ESTIMATES" on its website, in its yellow pages ad and on a tree service referral website. I did not have this guy come out to give me an unbiased professional consult, I specifically asked for an estimate on the work required to make the tree safe.

He's not claiming it was a paid pro consult, either; he's claiming his bid form is a contract to do the work, so when I signed that form, I agreed to hire him or pay $100 if I did not hire him. He knew he was the first bidder, and I was going to get other opinions in the coming weeks before making a decision.

A couple questions...

Does the bid sheet state that when signed it becomes a contract? Does it state that you pay $100 to break that contract? Did the shyster keep a copy of the bid sheet himself?

If the first two are no....

I'd tell him you signed the form to acknowledge receipt of his bid, not to commit to hiring him.

If the third is no, I'd just ask him to produce a copy of his "so called contract".

If any/all three are yes...

You can pay him the hundred bucks and be done with him. (If I ended up having to pay him, I'd go buy 200 rolls of pennies, and tell him to come pick up his hundred bucks. Don't forget to break the rolls open into a bucket. )

Or, you can tell him to sue you for the $100 in small claims. He won't. It isn't worth his time.

 

[appalachianarbo]

Any arborist who tries to enforce a contract that the client wants to back out of is on shaky ground in my opinion. I can't imagine working on someones trees in their yard with them not wanting me there!

Exactly!

I wonder if he realizes that you will tell your neighbors and friends about your negative experience with him and that he will ultimately lose business because he tried to force you hire him.

I'd blow him off. He'd be a fool to try and collect. Even if it did go to court, the hassle he'd have to go through would be worth my $100...

 

[Old Monkey]

He cannot take you to small claims court for $100. Every state has a threshold amount to have a case heard in small claims court. It used to be $500 but I think it is higher now. That guy is bluffing. If he is legit, he should be too busy to mess around for $100.

My bid sheet is a contract but folks only sign the bid if they are accepting it. Usually, I don't even bother to have them sign.