Manswers proves Jomoco wrong

[treevet]

1 non arb. and 1 used to be arb.

Some of the proponents of legislation want 2 men on all WTC's......In order for that to be a viable safety component the second person would have to be a passive observer. If he is an active feeder, I know from my own experience that with 2 feeders it is always a surprise to the number 1 guy when the number 2 (not from Austin Powers) guy actually engages the piece into the rollers. This way shortens reaction and escape time.

Also the second feeder can get in the way of escape of the other man. And again, with 2 feeders they are always gonna try to feed more than they safely should (without trimming) with a heavier more spread branch capable of entrapping either man.

Who can afford a passive observer on a job except gummit workers?

 

[jomoco]

1 non arb. and 1 used to be arb.

Some of the proponents of legislation want 2 men on all WTC's......In order for that to be a viable safety component the second person would have to be a passive observer. If he is an active feeder, I know from my own experience that with 2 feeders it is always a surprise to the number 1 guy when the number 2 (not from Austin Powers) guy actually engages the piece into the rollers. This way shortens reaction and escape time.

Also the second feeder can get in the way of escape of the other man. And again, with 2 feeders they are always gonna try to feed more than they safely should (without trimming) with a heavier more spread branch capable of entrapping either man.

Who can afford a passive observer on a job except gummit workers?

You're so full of it TV, or should I call you professor Ball?

Your pathetic post is right in line with professor Ball's blatant BS.

TCIA should pay you a salary from their proceeds fron morbark and vermeer!

The only party getting screwed are low paid groundies here.

jomoco

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I've worked on crews with more then one guy working on the chipper. One way I work around the traffic issue is I will usually appoint myself as dragger, or wait for the forst guy to get out of the way. Teams usually tend to work these things out so they do not step on each others feet too much.

As for the pull cords, it was my understanding that the "inventing" OEM wanted a hefty license fee from all the other MFR's that adapted them. The industry orgs were siding with the idea that the industry should not have to pay-up so much for a mandated add-on.

As for chipper size, I've had more problems with the smaller chippers then the huge ones. You are allways trying to force a limb in with the smaller infeed openings and light roller springs.

 

[treevet]

You're so full of it TV, or should I call you professor Ball?

Your pathetic post is right in line with professor Ball's blatant BS.

TCIA should pay you a salary from their proceeds fron morbark and vermeer!

The only party getting screwed are low paid groundies here.

jomoco

You know i was paging through a thread on another forum yesterday when I came across one you started insulting a poster's technique that drew the wrath of a multitude of posters and all the posters and in short order had you demeaning yourself and telling the truth (for once) that you are nobody special and you made a big mistake and kissing ass of the OP and everyone and anyone.

Now that was pathetic. I was deeply embarrassed for you.

Since when is your cause low paid groundies? And maybe these were, for the most part, very highly paid groundies but terminally dumb groundies.

My inclusion of the 500 deaths per year by elephant squishing was also to illustrate that one should not go wandering around where there are angry elephants running loose, or nursing mother grizzlies, or sneaky mountain lions, or swimming in white shark infested waters.

Neither should a very dumb dope that's gonna push limbs in the chute with their boots ....fill out an application where he will be operating a 250 horsepower, 20 inch auto feed roller fed pulverizer.

 

[jomoco]

You know i was paging through a thread on another forum yesterday when I came across one you started insulting a poster's technique that drew the wrath of a multitude of posters and all the posters and in short order had you demeaning yourself and telling the truth (for once) that you are nobody special and you made a big mistake and kissing ass of the OP and everyone and anyone.

Now that was pathetic. I was deeply embarrassed for you.

Since when is your cause low paid groundies? And maybe these were, for the most part, very highly paid groundies but terminally dumb groundies.

My inclusion of the 500 deaths per year by elephant squishing was also to illustrate that one should not go wandering around where there are angry elephants running loose, or nursing mother grizzlies, or sneaky mountain lions, or swimming in white shark infested waters.

Neither should a very dumb dope that's gonna push limbs in the chute with their boots ....fill out an application where he will be operating a 250 horsepower, 20 inch auto feed roller fed pulverizer.

What are chainsaw safety chaps for einstein?

Chainsaw operators who make mistakes?

Where does your prejudice against a chipper operator who makes mistakes come from TV?

jomoco

 

[treevet]

Being a treeman most of your life you must know that there are some mistakes you just cannot make. Being a human being for that matter.

I do not see the (innovations?) you propose as being that significant. Training and implementation and management of that training from standards (ANSI) are the key IMO.

You got anybody holding your hand when you are up there stumbling around in the trees you work on?

 

[jomoco]

Being a treeman most of your life you must know that there are some mistakes you just cannot make. Being a human being for that matter.

I do not see the (innovations?) you propose as being that significant. Training and implementation and management of that training from standards (ANSI) are the key IMO.

You got anybody holding your hand when you are up there stumbling around in the trees you work on?

Yeah well the status quo that you and TCIA are proponents of aint workin out too well to date now is it TV?

Is 500 dead the trigger for your conscience to finally kick into gear?

jomoco

 

[treevet]

Yeah well the status quo that you and TCIA are proponents of aint workin out too well to date now is it TV?

Is 500 dead the trigger for your conscience to finally kick into gear?

jomoco

I like status quo in this case embellished by ANSI.

I just don't see the 2 man thing working here or the panic cord. I do on the other hand see the 2 man thing work on the giant pachyderms.....

2 men stand back to back and if one comes your way the two of you got it covered since nobody's got eyes in the back of their heads. Presto 500 lives saved.

Kinda like the old train thing. How does the dumb ass get hit by the train when all he has to do is take a couple of steps .....off the tracks.

 

[jomoco]

As a matter of fact I do, his name is Samson, and he's a true blue friend of mine, even saved me from my mistakes a few times.

jomoco

 

[treevet]

As a matter of fact I do, his name is Samson, and he's a true blue friend of mine, even saved me from my mistakes a few times.

jomoco

see ya tomorrow my friend, I am cashing it in.

 

[jomoco]

see ya tomorrow my friend, I am cashing it in.

Merry Christmas TV.

jomoco

 

[outofmytree]

Logic might dictate that no-one dying using a last chance inchute pull cord equipped WTC indicates they may be safer than WTC's without them, in which over 35 fatalities have occurred?

The fact that I have witnessed 3 separate close calls on my own jobs where a second WTC operator got to the reverse bar quick enough to save a trapped/incapacitated operator from sure death is a sure indication that a mandated two man minimum on WTC's will indeed save treeworker lives.

That TCIA actively lobbies to prevent mandating even a simple two man minimum rule on large chippers is going to change, it's just a matter of how much longer it takes them to take action before state and federal officials do their jobs for them.

jomoco

At the risk of repeating myself, I direct this post to your attention, again.

Rebutt it logically if you can?

TV, Treeco, anybody?

jomoco

Ok. I see you have difficulty in reading so I will make it as simple as possible for you. As there is much dispute over the accuracy of fatal accident statistics we cannot say whether pullcords are effective or not. If your base data is worthless any premise drawn from that data is worthless.

What does draw my eye is this statement.

The fact that I have witnessed 3 separate close calls on my own jobs where a second WTC operator got to the reverse bar quick enough to save a trapped/incapacitated operator from sure death

If I had 1 near fatal accident on my site I would have called off the job. Shut down the gear. Gone home and worked out a better way and then retrained my guys. You claim to have had 3. This indicates a distinct lack of training and an embarrasing lack of care on the part of the business owner.

Exactly how are you training your guys that allows you to have 3 near fatal accidents?

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

As there is much dispute over the accuracy of fatal accident statistics we cannot say whether pullcords are effective or not. If your base data is worthless any premise drawn from that data is worthless.

Bingo. Until the data questions are resolved, nobody even knows how big the problem is. "I have personally seen..." doesn't cut it.

 

[TreeClimber57]

I believe proper training is key Vs. safety gizmo's.

Yep. That and common sense.

If no common sense present, all the training in the world will not help much.

I can not see the 2 man thing working much better than training as you stated, and common sense and pratical use. The other thing, don't rush.. (which I guess is common sense).

Most people can not afford to have somebody standing at machine all day to ensure somebody does not get in trouble. But they can afford to have people slow down a bit, use common sense and apply their training.

I have at times stood by chipper (and grinder for that matter), but was more observing the guys and ensuring they did it all as they were trained. If I had to pay somebody to sit on each machine to babysit it, think I would find another business.

 

[demographic]

Just get the elephants to load the chippers, problem sorted.

 

[jomoco]

You guys can't seem to think on a broader plane beyond your own operations.

Refusing too see that this problem will only get worse if nothing is done seems to be obvious to everyone except you.

Just last month this tragedy occuured.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/n.../teen_killed_in_wood_chipper_accident/307449/

Now you go ask the owner of that WTC whether he thinks a two man rule isn't a damn good idea?

Just because you have trained pros on your crews capable of safely operating a WTC, doesn't make these growing number of gruesome deaths any less real, and they certainly don't burnish our public image at all.

The owner of that WTC will be scarred for life from this very real tragedy.

jomoco

 

[rbtree]

In real practice, I can only see a two man rule being somewhat helpful. Typically, one person would often be as far away as the tree, picking up the next load to drag to the chipper, or would be walking away from the chipper, if he just dropped the load for the person chipping to feed.

Staging a lot of piles so two can work together feeding would be safer, but is only occasionally workable.

For a two man rule to be effective, at least a four man crew would be required in most cases.

ain't gonna fly!

 

[jomoco]

So Jomoco.....do you purpose a second 14 year old as the other man?

This accident reeks of a lack of training. Do you think you or I would be drug into a chipper by a shovel?

I started climbing trees commercially at 14 years old Treeco.

And like OSHA and FACE officials very familiar with these accidents, I also recommend a two man minimum rule to reduce them.

The pertinent question is why TCIA lobbies against them?

jomoco

 

[rbtree]

Can't remember where I saw it, but some chipper mfr. has come up with a ridiculous safety system. It involves some bars that extend out and down to near ground level, which must be stood on to allow the feed rollers to be engaged in the feed direction?

I dunno if the operator has to stay rooted to his stance till the branch has fed all the way through, but if so, how's that for a productivity killer?

Guffaw

 

[jomoco]

Can't remember where I saw it, but some chipper mfr. has come up with a ridiculous safety system. It involves some bars that extend out and down to near ground level, which must be stood on to allow the feed rollers to be engaged in the feed direction?

I dunno if the operator has to stay rooted to his stance till the branch has fed all the way through, but if so, how's that for a productivity killer?

Guffaw

Actually RB, vermeer's new feedtable bump bar system pretty much guarantees two man operation, because it takes one man leaning on the over-ride button to get any real production out of the unit!

jomoco