Milling in the woodlot

[HandLogger]

Splined Joinery

MM: Here are two of the better photos of splined joinery I can find right now. I've got lots of frame photos, so there's no way of being 100% positive about the exact location of these joints, but I'm pretty sure that I've got it right:

The first shot details a Red Oak spline passing through an outside principal post in Bent 2 of a three bay frame. As you can see, the end connecting girt that will join this end of Bents 1 and 2 has been loosely seated on the right end of the spline at this point in the raising.

The second shot details the same spline from the right side of the principal post. Here, the framer is loosely fitting the end connecting girt that will eventually span Bents 2 and 3, which will also effectively define one end of Bay 2.

The peg holes for this frame were drawbored. This promotes the "drawing together" (tightening) of frame joinery once the tapered pegs have been driven home. The majority of the beams in this frame were milled from Eastern White Pine (EWP); the braces were milled from Black Birch and Cherry; the pegs are octagonal hickory and black walnut; and the splines were milled from Red Oak, as previously explained.

As I mentioned earlier, I plan on using the same type of joinery in our frame. The splines promote strengthening of the joinery, as well as easing the frame raising process somewhat. As with all things structural, however, the frame must be designed properly, and that design must be followed during the actual construction process.

I hope this clarifies things a bit, mate ...

 

[cantcutter]

We put one up from a kit once.... everything was cut and ready to go. The exterior walls where sided and had ridged isulation in the middle and they just set inbetween the frame. My brother does them from scratch now.....him and a few guys he knows buys the timbers and cuts and sets up the whole thing. The one they are finishing up now has a full basement and two stories.... been working on it over a year.

 

[Matildasmate]

Marvelous mate

MM: Here are two of the better photos of splined joinery I can find right now. I've got lots of frame photos, so there's no way of being 100% positive about the exact location of these joints, but I'm pretty sure that I've got it right:

The first shot details a Red Oak spline passing through an outside principal post in Bent 2 of a three bay frame. As you can see, the end connecting girt that will join this end of Bents 1 and 2 has been loosely seated on the right end of the spline at this point in the raising.

The second shot details the same spline from the right side of the principal post. Here, the framer is loosely fitting the end connecting girt that will eventually span Bents 2 and 3, which will also effectively define one end of Bay 2.

The peg holes for this frame were drawbored. This promotes the "drawing together" (tightening) of frame joinery once the tapered pegs have been driven home. The majority of the beams in this frame were milled from Eastern White Pine (EWP); the braces were milled from Black Birch and Cherry; the pegs are octagonal hickory and black walnut; and the splines were milled from Red Oak, as previously explained.

As I mentioned earlier, I plan on using the same type of joinery in our frame. The splines promote strengthening of the joinery, as well as easing the frame raising process somewhat. As with all things structural, however, the frame must be designed properly, and that design must be followed during the actual construction process.

I hope this clarifies things a bit, mate ...

Hi Handlogger...............Mate , excellent stuff , I would be surprised to see any of that sort of work over here , haven't seen anything like it over here yet . Beutiful stuff . Thank you very much for that , much appreciated . Cheers MM

 

[Matildasmate]

No bars sold over 24", but use 4' bar in dvd

Man, what a bummer! Ya send off to get thier DVD, copy the design, cut them out and then all this talk.
Oh, and looking at all the sawdust around the mill, I'd say it must work pretty good. And did ya know, Logosol doesn't sell a bar over 24". Ya think maybe you might have hit on the reason why? And do you really think that nobody else "leaves out" stuff on thier DVD's.
Maybe you should just sue the clowns.

Rodney

Your right Rodney .........they don't sell bars over 24" , but they are happy to promote the use of 4' bars , with 120cc Stihl on oversize logs , to produce a nice banana cut . I currently use a 3' bar on mine a fair bit , but I made a support for mine and intend to use a 5' bar some time next year on mine with a support . Don't get me wrong mate , they have a pretty good product , but it has quite a few bugs though . I seen your your article on water cooling , and went to the Logosol forum , I slapped up a real rough water cooler to try it out , works bloody great mate , chain stays cool , almost no stretching and shrinking , you can touch the chain immediately after using it , I need to come up with a better dripper or a flat spray to control the dust better , the water actually works well also , as a lubricant , as well keeping the chain clean , I am happy to use anyone Ideas . Cheers MM

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Lets’ see, to run a CSM the chain is not that expensive and with someone with more skill than me can be sharpened on the saw (I am not that good with a file and is the main reason for my band mill). I know my one gallon gas can is of no use running my 385CSM. With gas at about $3 a gallon I would guess a CSM and a band mill cost about the same to run per hour. I sure others here can cost this better than me.

Aren't you leaving a couple things out??? What about that expensive 2 stroke oil you have to put in that gas??? What about that expensive bar oil that baby sucks???

I use to use a CSM, and my Lumbermate runs a lot cheaper than a big powerhead on a CSM. Another thing, you will easily wear out two big powerheads before one OHV Vanguard or OHV Honda will be worn out! Then, there's all the kerf loss to sawdust with a CSM...

CSM's have their place, but for any bigger job i'd pick even an low end bandmill every time! And keep in mind, that bandmill will have a decent resale when your done with it!

Rob

 

[cantcutter]

Chains are cheaper than most bands and last alot longer.... you also don't have to buy 10 chains at a time. I would guess that the csm does burn more fuel than a bandmill though being that the 2 cycle runs at a higher rpm. The bar oil is an added cost that you don't have with a bandmill unless you buy the commercial lubes and I don't think anybody does. If you are factoring the cost of the machines in I would say the bandmill is more expensive to run, but hour to hour I would say that the csm costs more.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Chains are cheaper than most bands and last alot longer.... you also don't have to buy 10 chains at a time. I would guess that the csm does burn more fuel than a bandmill though being that the 2 cycle runs at a higher rpm. The bar oil is an added cost that you don't have with a bandmill unless you buy the commercial lubes and I don't think anybody does. If you are factoring the cost of the machines in I would say the bandmill is more expensive to run, but hour to hour I would say that the csm costs more.

Yes and NO... My brother was buying his bands one or two at a time for less than $15ea... The chain on my chainsaw cost more than that! I buy more expensive bands than that, and i sharpen and set them myself, just like i sharpen and lower the rakers on my chain saw chain myself. The difference there is, the cost of the tools. On the other hand, my brother sharpened all his bands freehand with a dremel for a long time... (he has since build a sharpener)

I'm not so sure about the "last a lot longer" either... Compareing how many bd ft each will do, i bet the band will last longer! They do me...

The bandmill will be cheaper to own when you ALSO factor in the resale, and/or keep them both long enough to have to buy that extra powerhead on long term ownership...

If i put in the same hours as some of the guys here sawing one log into slabs with a CSM, i could have sawn out enough extra lumber with my bandmill in that time, and sold it for some side $$... Also every 5th board is FREE with the bandmill...

I'm NOT slamming a CSM, the above is just a fact of life... For some things they are the best tool for the job!

Rob

 

[Rodney Sinclair]

Aren't you leaving a couple things out??? What about that expensive 2 stroke oil you have to put in that gas??? What about that expensive bar oil that baby sucks???

I use to use a CSM, and my Lumbermate runs a lot cheaper than a big powerhead on a CSM. Another thing, you will easily wear out two big powerheads before one OHV Vanguard or OHV Honda will be worn out! Then, there's all the kerf loss to sawdust with a CSM...

CSM's have their place, but for any bigger job i'd pick even an low end bandmill every time! And keep in mind, that bandmill will have a decent resale when your done with it!

Rob

I don't think he left out any more than most folks do. In fact, I think he said it all pretty well. What did he say about the blades? $20 to start? Sounds right. Then about $10 to get resharpened? Again sounds about right. Plus shipping, both ways 7 times. So now ya got $100 in one blade. The last time I bought a chain from Bailey's, it cost about $12 plus shipping and to sharpen it took a $1.00 file. Now that is a lot of "expensive oil".

Then he talked about portability. Now I have both the Logosol M7 chainsaw mill and the TimberKing 1220 bandsaw mill. I can move either one of them, but really wouldn't call neither one "portable". That's just the wrong word.

Now the support equipment. I got a 40 hp farm type tractor I bought new in 1979 for almost $10,000. Then I got a backhoe I paid a little over $26,000 for about seven years ago. Plus a Jeep with a 8,000 Warn winch, a 16' trailer and an old 85 duel wheel truck. Yeah, I'd say the mill is the cheapest part.

Then there is all this "kerf loss". If this is so important, why does everyone use a table saw in the shop? Why not the $300 band saw from Sears? Or better yet, from Habor Freight?

Rodney

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I don't think he left out any more than most folks do. In fact, I think he said it all pretty well. What did he say about the blades? $20 to start? Sounds right. Then about $10 to get resharpened? Again sounds about right. Plus shipping, both ways 7 times. So now ya got $100 in one blade. The last time I bought a chain from Bailey's, it cost about $12 plus shipping and to sharpen it took a $1.00 file. Now that is a lot of "expensive oil".

WOW, you should do my billing with math like that!! lol lol

I guess you didn't know you can sharpen those bands yourself??? AND, even woodmizer sharpens them for less that $10.00 ea., i do believe includeing postage... Like i said, my brother sharpened his for several years with a dremel "freehand" and they did just fine for him. He still spends LESS than $20ea for his bands... How much does that add up to???

As for the tablesaw, have you noticed many shops have went to thin kerf blades???? Did you know even the wide one only has an 1/8" kerf?? Did you know that cabinet shops mostly use a bandsaw for resawing?? I owned and ran my own custom futniture/cabinet shop for many years, and i still have all the tools, so i'm not guessing here...

 

[Rodney Sinclair]

I wondered what you did for a living. But It just wasn't important enough to me to ask.

Rodney

 

[Matildasmate]

Timber king

I don't think he left out any more than most folks do. In fact, I think he said it all pretty well. What did he say about the blades? $20 to start? Sounds right. Then about $10 to get resharpened? Again sounds about right. Plus shipping, both ways 7 times. So now ya got $100 in one blade. The last time I bought a chain from Bailey's, it cost about $12 plus shipping and to sharpen it took a $1.00 file. Now that is a lot of "expensive oil".

Then he talked about portability. Now I have both the Logosol M7 chainsaw mill and the TimberKing 1220 bandsaw mill. I can move either one of them, but really wouldn't call neither one "portable". That's just the wrong word.

Now the support equipment. I got a 40 hp farm type tractor I bought new in 1979 for almost $10,000. Then I got a backhoe I paid a little over $26,000 for about seven years ago. Plus a Jeep with a 8,000 Warn winch, a 16' trailer and an old 85 duel wheel truck. Yeah, I'd say the mill is the cheapest part.

Then there is all this "kerf loss". If this is so important, why does everyone use a table saw in the shop? Why not the $300 band saw from Sears? Or better yet, from Habor Freight?

Rodney

Hi Rodney.............. How big is your Bandsaw , how fast do you reckon you can cut a full width slab , in ft a minute roughly , and how many board feet , do you reckon a blade will last , also how many sharpens will a blade last on average . Cheers MM

 

[cantcutter]

WM charges 7.00 plus shipping for sharpening.... TK gets 8.00 plus shipping..... A band will not last 2-3 hrs per sharpening so it adds up fast. I know that bands can be had for 15.00 each, but the average is alot higher than that... I haven't ever paid more than 20.00 for a chain and it costs me nothing to sharpen them. I also havent ever priced milling chains so I don't know about them. It would be interesting to know how much BF each will saw before needing to be replaced.... I would put my bet on the chain.

 

[Rodney Sinclair]

Hi Rodney.............. How big is your Bandsaw , how fast do you reckon you can cut a full width slab , in ft a minute roughly , and how many board feet , do you reckon a blade will last , also how many sharpens will a blade last on average . Cheers MM

It's set up to saw 12' and TimberKing says it will cut 29" at the center of a log. But that has to be a perfect log and that doesn't happen very often.It is big enough to do what I want out of it which for the most part is mostly pine for framing and siding. I never timed the cutting but would guess a 24" log 8' long takes a minute or so each cut. With a sharp blade. When the blade is starting to dull is when you start to get a wavey cut. Sometimes it will take a dive on you. I'll try to post a picture so you can see how bad a dive and both the kerfs we are talking about. Board feet depends on how thick you are cutting. On 4/4, I'd say maybe 150 so 8/4 would be double that. Thay don't last long.

Rodney

 

[Matildasmate]

Nice looking mill

It's set up to saw 12' and TimberKing says it will cut 29" at the center of a log. But that has to be a perfect log and that doesn't happen very often.It is big enough to do what I want out of it which for the most part is mostly pine for framing and siding. I never timed the cutting but would guess a 24" log 8' long takes a minute or so each cut. With a sharp blade. When the blade is starting to dull is when you start to get a wavey cut. Sometimes it will take a dive on you. I'll try to post a picture so you can see how bad a dive and both the kerfs we are talking about. Board feet depends on how thick you are cutting. On 4/4, I'd say maybe 150 so 8/4 would be double that. Thay don't last long.

Rodney

Hell takes a different root when blunt mate . The figures you use 4/4 and 8/4 do they mean 4x4 and 8x4 . Cheers MM

 

[cantcutter]

Hell takes a different root when blunt mate . The figures you use 4/4 and 8/4 do they mean 4x4 and 8x4 . Cheers MM

here 4/4 would be 1 inch and 8/4 is 2 inch... ie 1x6 and 2x6 is 4/4 x6 and 8/4 x 6. That is how demensional lumber is measured because if you want a full inch you have to buy 5/4 boards. Maybe that is not what he means, but that is where those standards comes from

 

[Matildasmate]

How many sharpens do you get out of a band?

WM charges 7.00 plus shipping for sharpening.... TK gets 8.00 plus shipping..... A band will not last 2-3 hrs per sharpening so it adds up fast. I know that bands can be had for 15.00 each, but the average is alot higher than that... I haven't ever paid more than 20.00 for a chain and it costs me nothing to sharpen them. I also havent ever priced milling chains so I don't know about them. It would be interesting to know how much BF each will saw before needing to be replaced.... I would put my bet on the chain.

How many sharpens do you get out of a band , roughly? . I cut this 4 footer up on one sharpen . these bits were on average 12" wide , about 32 lineal feet of cutting . Roughly 2' a minute guessing , I will have to start timeing some of it , just out of interest . It took about a ms660 tank per cut .

 

[Rodney Sinclair]

I meant it like Cantcutter said. 4/4= 1", 8/4= 2". The pictures were to show what happens when you push a blade to far, and so you can see just how much difference there really is in the kerf.

Rodney

 

[Matildasmate]

Yep

I meant it like Cantcutter said. 4/4= 1", 8/4= 2". The pictures were to show what happens when you push a blade to far, and so you can see just how much difference there really is in the kerf.

Rodney

Yep I worked that out mate , but I have seen 4/4 and all the others , quite a few time's and not known what it was exactly , over here we say 2"x1" , 3"x1 , 4"x2", 4"x4" and so on , or in metric 42x19 , 70x19 , 90x45 , 90x90 thats millimetre's , none of the inch sizes are actually a full inch , the full inch sizes are really rough sawn sizes before moulding . Cheers MM

 

[HandLogger]

Great discussion!

Well, I'm certainly getting an education from all sides of the milling world here!

Rodney: Those are some of the most informative photos I've seen in a long while! I especially favor the one showing the M7 cut above the Timber King's: very poignant indeed. :newbie: It's just too bad that such a nice cant was diminished by that blade.

Rob: I definitely appreciate hearing for the Norwood folks as well. I know a guy over in NH that has milled some beautiful, long EWP beams with his as well. By the way, I'm presently researching the AGCOs and the ALO attachments as well. I'm impressed right away with the Quicke series stuff. ALO certainly seems to mean business!

MM: Did you find the photos of the splined joinery informative? The mortising aspect of square rule joinery is a bit more challenging when splines are incorporated in a design, but the payoff comes during assembly. As you saw, those girts can be left loose until you're good and ready, which simplifies raising a frame somewhat. Hope all is well down there.

CantCutter: I'd like to point out to the readers that CC uses a bandmill. It's good to see that people can still be this objective about things so many take to heart. I really appreciate the honest views.

Thanks to all who are contributing to the thread. Once again, I look forward to learning even more.

 

[Rodney Sinclair]

Rodney: Those are some of the most informative photos I've seen in a long while! I especially favor the one showing the M7 cut above the Timber King's: very poignant indeed. :newbie: It's just too bad that such a nice cant was diminished by that blade.

Well, it didn't ruin the cant. But it sure took care of that extra board these guys talk about. (big grin)

Rodney