Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
we're thinking in a very similar manner. i will be home in the next hour or so, i will give tapping the flywheel side a shot and update everyone. I also may do a video.
ms440 Rebuild
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Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
i tapped the flywheel side of the cs with a rubber mallet. doesn't seem like much of a difference. i can still turn the cs if i use a hand on both sides (fw and clutch side of cs), i'm assuming I should be able turn it using one hand?
yes, i used the socket and hammer method. i assumed the seal would seat properly on its own, i didn't consider the possibility of going too far. considering that the crankshaft still turns, sounds normal and the seal appears to be level, i have to assume it's probably not that far off. unsuccessful finding the seal online, and the local dealer wants $16 to order it.
assuming I reassemble the saw as it, would the compression test and vacuum test confirm/disprove if the seal is properly in place?
yes, i used the socket and hammer method. i assumed the seal would seat properly on its own, i didn't consider the possibility of going too far. considering that the crankshaft still turns, sounds normal and the seal appears to be level, i have to assume it's probably not that far off. unsuccessful finding the seal online, and the local dealer wants $16 to order it.
assuming I reassemble the saw as it, would the compression test and vacuum test confirm/disprove if the seal is properly in place?
Not sure if the leak testing would tell you what you need to know; the sealing lip should still seal around the oiler bushing on the crankshaft and the outer casing is still sealing itself into the outer race of the bearing. Don't think the seal sealing is the issue.
I know it's easy for me to say from here, but just how hard did you tap it? Too gentle won't do anything. Personally I would use reasonable force, if you know what I mean.
Or if you think that the added resistance doesn't feel too much, build it and see how it turns out.
You're probably going to have to take an executive decision on this one.
Edit:Just a slight edit based on what you've said about how hard it is to turn the crank over, you should really be able to grasp the little end of the piston rod with your thumb and finger and be able to spin the crank over quickly and easily with very little effort.
I know it's easy for me to say from here, but just how hard did you tap it? Too gentle won't do anything. Personally I would use reasonable force, if you know what I mean.
Or if you think that the added resistance doesn't feel too much, build it and see how it turns out.
You're probably going to have to take an executive decision on this one.
Edit:Just a slight edit based on what you've said about how hard it is to turn the crank over, you should really be able to grasp the little end of the piston rod with your thumb and finger and be able to spin the crank over quickly and easily with very little effort.
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Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
I understand. I just hit it with more force and I can turn it with one hand now, but still more resistance than before. I will try to work it some more this evening. Also, I will look a little harder for the seal online, just in case. Thanks for the advice. Now, I'm off to process a chicken. Friends dog got to one a little while ago. I'm doing all kind of firsts this week.
little possum
Crash and Burn
Stihl isnt very fond of their stuff being sold online. But the bay may have some listings, or there may be a generic seal number.. Do you have the IPL for the 440?
Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
yeah, the bay is what I was referring to. The seals are $10 on the bay as opposed to $16 at the local Stihl. I feel rather confident about this seal working, tho i am not sure everyone else shares in this confidence. it is certainly easier to turn though.
on the IPL, i do not have it.
on the IPL, i do not have it.
Adirondackstihl
Flyz, Fuel & Fotos
Check with Weedeaterman for the seals.
A rubber mallet isnt gonna do much. You need either a hard plastic dead blow or my favorite, a brass hammer. You could also use a piece of aluminum to soften the blow from a regular framing hammer. IMO, you really need to use "metal" to send the harmonics to work for you. And dont be afraid to hit it........but dont forget, youre also not driving railroad spikes either.
I strongly recommend OEM seals where possible.
Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
Upon further investigation, I believe the seal is not sitting flush. I attached a few pictures and I def think one side is sitting deeper. Should I use the socket and only tap on the side that is higher?
View attachment 300786View attachment 300787View attachment 300788View attachment 300789View attachment 300790
View attachment 300786View attachment 300787View attachment 300788View attachment 300789View attachment 300790
Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
I'm new at this, but I 100% agree. I'm very skeptical of anything aftermarket, but especially seals.
RiverRat2
Serio Tree Freak
Adirondackstihl
Flyz, Fuel & Fotos
I hate to say it, but youre never gonna be happy with that seal the way it is. You'll always be wondering "what if"!
Bite the bullet and buy a whole new OEM gasket/seal kit from your dealer and just replace the seal. You'll have extras for later or the next project. I get the OEM kits for $20.....which is only $4 more than what your dealer wants for one seal :msp_unsure:
nmurph
ArboristSite.com Sponsor
I have five 044/440's apart for rebuild right now. I measured the clearance between the crank bell and crankcase; all were about .042-.045 on the FW side and about . 025 on the PTO side.
Adirondackstihl
Flyz, Fuel & Fotos
Brad owns and operates Arboristsites top notch aftermarket parts testing facility. If he says OEM seal.....you better stick with OEM seals. :wink2:
:computer2:
Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
bullet has been bit. ordered the seal and will hopefully have it by the end of the week.
Andrew Wellman
ArboristSite Operative
He is reall only a couple of years older!
At 16 and my first car was a 74 Mecurey marquis and that was 1986. Maybe Randy is 25 and likes vintage chrysler products?
At 16 and my first car was a 74 Mecurey marquis and that was 1986. Maybe Randy is 25 and likes vintage chrysler products?
Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
I pulled the oil seal on the clutch side and I am pretty sure the resistance I was feeling was just from the great compression I now have. I pulled the spark plug and it turned easier. Hopefully, the new oil seal will arrive tomorrow and I can get the saw started this weekend. I want to run vacuum and compression first. Any advice on how to do this? Thanks.
Andrew Wellman
ArboristSite Operative
fresh seals have more drag at first
Fresh seals have some drag at first. This is what I do for a vacum test. I have the basic mighty vac for 35$ at the auto parts store and a bicycle shock pump that come with every suspension fork I have owned. I cut off the shrader valve adaptor and put the vacume tester tips on it. Any ways, on a 44O I put a piece of rubber edm or thick inner tube between the muffler and its cylinder port. I use as paper hole punch to make the holds for the rubber. I do this for making my own cylinder gaskets. Then I remove the support ring from the carb manifold and take a cylindrical rubber av mount like the ones that come off of old stihls or dolmars. I stuff it in the manifold to seal it off. Your can also block the intake like you did with the exhausts, and use the carb to tighten down on the rubber membrain. I stuff it in the manifold to seal it off. Then I put my vacume or pressure tester on the impulse line. I pump up to 10psi and see how long it holds, 15 seconds is fine. I do the same for the vacume. You don't need to wait minutes because the realavant timing of cyling of and engine is far less than 15 seconds.
Fresh seals have some drag at first. This is what I do for a vacum test. I have the basic mighty vac for 35$ at the auto parts store and a bicycle shock pump that come with every suspension fork I have owned. I cut off the shrader valve adaptor and put the vacume tester tips on it. Any ways, on a 44O I put a piece of rubber edm or thick inner tube between the muffler and its cylinder port. I use as paper hole punch to make the holds for the rubber. I do this for making my own cylinder gaskets. Then I remove the support ring from the carb manifold and take a cylindrical rubber av mount like the ones that come off of old stihls or dolmars. I stuff it in the manifold to seal it off. Your can also block the intake like you did with the exhausts, and use the carb to tighten down on the rubber membrain. I stuff it in the manifold to seal it off. Then I put my vacume or pressure tester on the impulse line. I pump up to 10psi and see how long it holds, 15 seconds is fine. I do the same for the vacume. You don't need to wait minutes because the realavant timing of cyling of and engine is far less than 15 seconds.
Carolina Diesel
ArboristSite Operative
Thanks for the advice on checking vacuum. Any advice on torquing my flywheel nut down? Impact?
Andrew Wellman
ArboristSite Operative
Lock tight and spark plug wrench
I read read what I wrote before and its all good but It does read funny like I was in a hurry late at night. Basically plug the holes and put the testers on the impulse line.
Regarding torque, I am sure there is a spec that some one will give us. This is what I do and some may disagree. The hand way I take the small side of a scrench that fits over the nut to tighten it. Then I take a small thin piece of wood and block the fly wheel at the couter weight or the magnets were the material is much stouter than just a lone fin and I give it a good crank down by hand. More than a spark plug but less than makeing your viens in your head pop out. The other way I do it is with my leaking underpowered, failing impact wrench, I run it down untill it stops with my and then give it it two short pops with the wrench. I am not staying the wheel when I do this and the spark plug is not in the clyinder. These are not at all scienitific methods but each have worked well even without a key when i have played with the advance or retarding of the ignition timing.
I read read what I wrote before and its all good but It does read funny like I was in a hurry late at night. Basically plug the holes and put the testers on the impulse line.
Regarding torque, I am sure there is a spec that some one will give us. This is what I do and some may disagree. The hand way I take the small side of a scrench that fits over the nut to tighten it. Then I take a small thin piece of wood and block the fly wheel at the couter weight or the magnets were the material is much stouter than just a lone fin and I give it a good crank down by hand. More than a spark plug but less than makeing your viens in your head pop out. The other way I do it is with my leaking underpowered, failing impact wrench, I run it down untill it stops with my and then give it it two short pops with the wrench. I am not staying the wheel when I do this and the spark plug is not in the clyinder. These are not at all scienitific methods but each have worked well even without a key when i have played with the advance or retarding of the ignition timing.
