Need advice on dropping a hazard hang-up: With pictures!

[yourboyblue]

This is the situation. #1 is Live Oak (24"), #2 (36") and #3 Coulter Pine:

View attachment 199307


I'm very comfortable dropping trees that are normally situated, but this has quite a bit more potential danger. I've never climbed before, and this is not the one I want to start on. Unfortunately, the hanger has to come down because the road on the right side of the picture is used as a trail and there are people--mostly kids--walking it all the time. Not pictured is another tree, directly under the tip of the hanger. If I was to cut chunks off the butt of the hanger, it would be left suspended horizontally between the bole of tree #1 and tree out of frame--not improving the situation.

I guess my question is, since I can easily hook a cable to either tree #1 or #3 and pull down the road with a tractor, would it be totally unsafe to make a face cut on tree #1 and then slowly start back-cutting, and finally pull the whole shebang down with the vehicle with myself safely out of the way? #3 is well hung. Line of fall would be toward the right background of the picture--diagonally across the road. My escape would be to the left of the foreground. Tree #3 is already pressing against #2, so there is a block against #3 falling much in the foreground direction, even if the cut went badly for some reason.

Dangers I see:

A) Tree #1 is under much more tension than I suspect, and I drop it much earlier than I mean to, not leaving myself time to escape.

B) Tree #1 is under a lot of tension and barber chairs while I'm back-cutting.

C) Everything drops well, but the pull of the tractor swings the butt of #3 around toward the foreground.


Obviously situation A is the scariest, but seems unlikely if I'm making small cuts, watching carefully, and have someone spotting for me I should be able to avoid everything coming down unexpectedly. Am I totally misreading this? Situation B is scary too. I'm aware of the possibility, but have never seen the barber chair happen. I understand a bore cut with a backstrap could help mitigate the risk here, but since I want to pull the tree down, the backstrap doesn't seem like a good solution. Thoughts?

I should be able to avoid C by not putting tension on the cable until I'm out of range of the butt.


Am I making too many assumptions here? Please tell me how I'm being an idiot--that's what I'm here for! Helpful advice is also appreciated. :msp_smile:

 

[thepheniox]

Option #1 should be calling the department responsible for the road. They may have an obligation to ensure the road is safe. Big tree hanging over the road ready to fall might not be safe. Maybe worth a try.

 

[yourboyblue]

Option #1 should be calling the department responsible for the road. They may have an obligation to ensure the road is safe. Big tree hanging over the road ready to fall might not be safe. Maybe worth a try.

I definitely would, but unfortunately, this is a fire road on our own property (I work at a camp). Thanks for the reply though.

 

[troythetreeman]

even if you get one tree down safely you still have it hung up in the other, often when they hang up like that theyre stuck pretty good
what i would probably do is block as much of the trunk of tree 3 as i possibly could from the ground
then i would go up tree one and cut the free end of tree three to fall, then cut the other end and let it drop
then possibly tie something to the butt of 3 to try and drag tree 3 out of tree 2, that failing, go into tree 2 and piece tree 3 out of it
i have used other more entailed methods on occasion but those were to ensure no property was damaged
you dont have someone you trust to put on the tractor?
if you can work it out what way to pull, have them keep the line tight till youre ready to pull, thats more ideal
then, if necessary drag 3 out of 2
but your idea sounds pretty high risk
i would seriously suggest getting a professional to handle it
i do not think i would personally attempt what youre talking about here, just too many variables, too much risk

 

[yourboyblue]

Troy--

Thanks for the reply. My picture might be a touch misleading... Tree #1 is primarily holding #3 off the ground. It's not really too tangled in #2. If #1 goes down, #3 is going to the ground with it. Knowing that, does it still sound like the wrong idea to try to cut #1 and pull it down?

I don't really have the comfort or the rig to climb this thing.

Cheers.

 

[flushcut]

Call a tree guy.

 

[troythetreeman]

i appreciate youre not wanting to climb this tree
are you saying tree 3 is essentially teeter tottering in tree 1?
if you can get a cable or a chain high enough, at least above the crotch tree 3 is stuck in, and if you have someone with a brain on the tractor holding it tight and ready to pull when the time is right and if you can work out multiple escape routes depending if it goes the way you want or some other direction, and if you can keep a cool head if it all goes wrong to not freeze up and take the smartest escape route, if youre prepared to sacrifice your saw and if you have life and health insurance...
man theres just so much that can go wrong there with catastrophic consequence....
ive a lot of experience with high risk tree work and i can say with almost certainty i would not attempt what youre talking about here
putting that stuff on the ground will take someone with experience less then an hour
youre talking about a couple hundred dollars or less if they only need to climb one tree and make 2 cuts, which is what you make it sound like
if this is some sort of childrens camp possibly someone would donate their time

 

[troythetreeman]

really all i can tell you man is use your common sense, what you suggest could possibly work perfectly, but is it worth the risk to try?

 

[Biker Dude]

Could you pull #3 out of the picture to the left and thus off of #1? That would be the safest way I can see to solve the problem.

How about this. Throw rope b into #3 with a slip knot and then drape it back over the crotch.Cut #3 at red line so the trunk is a little shorter than the distance to the ground. Hook rope A in and pull the trunk of #3 down till it slides down to the ground and plants itself. Pull #3 off of #1 using rope B.

I'm just a firewood guy so my advice is worth less than that of a professional. Whatever you do, make sure you are safe. There is no tree worth more than your life and if you aren't confident in your abilities to do this safely then hire a pro. Whatever it costs will be less than the loss of your life or limbs.

 

[zxcvbob]

1. You can greatly reduce (eliminate?) the risk of barberchairing by wrapping a logging chain around the trunk above where you're going to cut. The problem is keeping the chain from sliding down and getting in the way.
   
2. What about an unconventional solution -- dynamite?
   

I agree with hiring a pro that has his own insurance. It doesn't look that bad if they can climb it or use a cherry picker, and you have a road for access.

 

[Tree Pig]

heres a good example of how it could be done, but if you cant do that hire someone that can if your not confident on your own. Other then that post a real picture and you may get some more educated opinions or options.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/user/murphy4trees#p/u/43/I5bt6NJEVAI[/video]

 

[HILLBILLYREDNEC]

Hazard

Do not attempt doing this tree at all. See if there is a AS member that lives close to come look at this,at least you will have another persons opinion about it.. This is an area for a pro to many watch out signs in this one sorry mate. It may be a man lift and chunk job. This is a job that could kill or maim you I have been cutting trees for over 20 years and yes I do ask for help, I am familar with hazard trees as part of one of my tree farm jobs. I am just being the caring one.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Call a tree guy.

I agree, call a tree guy.
Jeff

 

[treeseer]

I agree, call a tree guy.
Jeff

I agree, call a tree guy. I agree, call a tree guy. I agree, call a tree guy.

Or just put signs on the trail.

Killing a big innocent oak just because you can't climb would not make a good obituary.

 

[newsawtooth]

This is the situation. #1 is Live Oak (24"), #2 (36") and #3 Coulter Pine:

View attachment 199307

Am I totally misreading this?
Am I making too many assumptions here? Please tell me how I'm being an idiot--that's what I'm here for! Helpful advice is also appreciated. :msp_smile:

The hazards you have identified are not the ones that will likely kill you. The primary hazard is the dangers above you. Forget barber chairing, forget twisting of the the trees you want to cut, forget everything you think you can control from the ground. The problem is above you. You should also try to forget fixing the situation yourself.

 

[Bearcreek]

94% Ammonium Nitrate and 6% diesel plus some cannon fuse and a big drill.

 

[serial feller]

94% Ammonium Nitrate and 6% diesel plus some cannon fuse and a big drill.

You stole my thunder! I was getting ready to suggest something similar.

 

[zogger]

bucket truck

This is the situation. #1 is Live Oak (24"), #2 (36") and #3 Coulter Pine:

View attachment 199307


I'm very comfortable dropping trees that are normally situated, but this has quite a bit more potential danger. I've never climbed before, and this is not the one I want to start on. Unfortunately, the hanger has to come down because the road on the right side of the picture is used as a trail and there are people--mostly kids--walking it all the time. Not pictured is another tree, directly under the tip of the hanger. If I was to cut chunks off the butt of the hanger, it would be left suspended horizontally between the bole of tree #1 and tree out of frame--not improving the situation.

I guess my question is, since I can easily hook a cable to either tree #1 or #3 and pull down the road with a tractor, would it be totally unsafe to make a face cut on tree #1 and then slowly start back-cutting, and finally pull the whole shebang down with the vehicle with myself safely out of the way? #3 is well hung. Line of fall would be toward the right background of the picture--diagonally across the road. My escape would be to the left of the foreground. Tree #3 is already pressing against #2, so there is a block against #3 falling much in the foreground direction, even if the cut went badly for some reason.

Dangers I see:

A) Tree #1 is under much more tension than I suspect, and I drop it much earlier than I mean to, not leaving myself time to escape.

B) Tree #1 is under a lot of tension and barber chairs while I'm back-cutting.

C) Everything drops well, but the pull of the tractor swings the butt of #3 around toward the foreground.


Obviously situation A is the scariest, but seems unlikely if I'm making small cuts, watching carefully, and have someone spotting for me I should be able to avoid everything coming down unexpectedly. Am I totally misreading this? Situation B is scary too. I'm aware of the possibility, but have never seen the barber chair happen. I understand a bore cut with a backstrap could help mitigate the risk here, but since I want to pull the tree down, the backstrap doesn't seem like a good solution. Thoughts?

I should be able to avoid C by not putting tension on the cable until I'm out of range of the butt.


Am I making too many assumptions here? Please tell me how I'm being an idiot--that's what I'm here for! Helpful advice is also appreciated. :msp_smile:

Get a bucket truck, and block down the leaner. You shouldn't have to hardly mess with the other two trees. Just stop thinking about dropping either one of them, just don't go there.

Hard to tell from the pic exactly how stout everything is wedged in there. If it is real solid and that whatever kind of pine tree is really stuck good..welll..

I sure wouldn't drop either one of those other trees though, nutso. The leaner looks like in the picture you could drive your motorcylce right up the trunk. I'm nuts that's how I think, walk up there and chunk it off. But I ain't looking at it like you are and am not a pro tree guy by any stretch of the imagination, don't even play one on the internetz, just sport climbed some gnarly stuff looked like that before..because young guys don't give a crap. They just don't. They don't even much think about that stuff, they think "hey look, neat, let's go *there*"

I'm an older guy now and seemed to have fallen into the "I now give a crap" category...I no longer wiggle to the tippy top of trees and swing around on what is left of the trunk..nope..nor any such other endeavors, feel I have pushed it quite enough, thanks...

The butt is on the ground? It's a big tree? It is not rotten? It goes off at a very shallow angle? It's wedged super solid? All the branches on the other trees holding the problem tree in place are mambo stout?

Climbing tree 1 looks dumb, tree 2 looks like your last option if you use a climber, because he can tie off above any weirdo zone and keep some distance.

With all that said, note, I advised use a bucket truck, looks easy enough if you can get one in there and the truck stays this side of tree two for the blocking of tree three. Spend a few bucks, done. Those guys pluck nastier stuff from outta lines and over folks houses and stuff. It is the "tool of choice" for that job, looks like it anyway. And that is their job, it is what they do all day long, they are used to it.

They call crap like you are looking at a "widowmaker" for a good reason. Gravity works, and it is faster than a cheetah on steroids. It is loads faster than you planning escape routes and relying on some other dude in a tractor, etc. See, you don't even know if that thing would swing up, the butt end, if you hooked the butt and managed to drag it out of tree 2, it could pivot and jerk your tractor rear end up. You might need at least a ..whatever..fifty ton dozer to withstand that, and even then your cable or line could snap. Ain't worth it on a big tree with two different hang up points on different trees. if it was hung on *one* tree you might could drag it out, but two, you'd need some fancy math and measurements to know how it would pivot or not once loose of the first fartherest away tree.

So get a bucket truck.

 

[pbtree]

Check your PM - Where in CA are you located?

 

[avason]

I would get a come-a-long. Those things are impressive do a lot of work but are sometimes forgotten tools that people have.