New personal best today

[rwoods]

My hat is off to all of you, whether formally educated or not, making a living (or retired from) doing something you are good at and enjoyed. That type of career is a blessing that many (probably most) don't have. Don't get me wrong, I know none of your careers is a cake walk. And that it took a lot of hard work and perseverance to get where you are.

I thought about my friend, NM, this weekend as my cutting buddy and I spent the day wrenching instead of cutting - 7 hours just to replace a bypass hose on the truck that some squirrel thought was tasty, followed by an hour trying in vain to start the dozer so we could use it to help get the truck up the hill. Not one stick of firewood cut or moved. I thought about most of you this week when I learned the forecast is calling for up to 5" of rain which loosely translated means - I will be repairing the dozer in the rain and even after its fixed the truck will still be at the bottom of the hill. As a volunteer I find inspiration in knowing there are folks like each of you that encounter similar problems regularly during the course of a chosen career and press on every workday regardless.

Let's not let our differences in backgrounds, localities and personalities distract from the good found here. I hear some saws in the background so I will get off my perch before it is taken out from under me.

Ron

 

[Huntaholic]

Inferiority complexes have numerous ways of being displayed. One of the most common is attacking, much like a fearful dog bites.

Ummm youre the one who started attacking, not me. Whatever it was that pulled your panties into your crack isn't my problem. It has been my experience and is also my OPINION that having a degree doesn't make you one tiny bit better or smarter than somebody who has done this stuff all their life. To be honest, yeah it chaps my arse that those people charge people for their OPINION on how to harvest their timber. But, you know what they say, those that can, DO, those that cant, try to tell other people HOW. At the end of the day, when its all said and done, how bad did I miss those loads? When you ask me something that's in my wheelhouse, ITS MY FU***** JOB to know.
Tell ya what I will do, IF its not too wet to get across the creek to the logyard, I will post you a picture of a load of logs tomorrow and my "squirrel finding a nut" guess as to whats on it and what it will bring and you do the same. Then come Friday I will post the load ticket for that load and we will all see how good you are.
Like somebody else said, this thread was fun, until it wasn't. I started it just to talk about ONE damned good tree, and maybe get some conversation started along those lines and this is what it has evolved into. The problem with me, is I don't have any quit in me. When you start something, whether on the net or in person, it has to come to a resolution. Stomp my arse, prove me wrong, apologize if in the wrong or accept my apology if I was in the wrong. Its just that simple. Prove me wrong and I will apologize profusely, get proven wrong and you only have to admit it once. If not, that's when that other stuff comes into play.
HOPE YOU HAVE A WONDERFUL DAY!

My hat is off to all of you, whether formally educated or not, making a living (or retired from) doing something you are good at and enjoyed. That type of career is a blessing that many (probably most) don't have. Don't get me wrong, I know none of your careers is a cake walk. And that it took a lot of hard work and perseverance to get where you are.

I thought about my friend, NM, this weekend as my cutting buddy and I spent the day wrenching instead of cutting - 7 hours just to replace a bypass hose on the truck that some squirrel thought was tasty, followed by an hour trying in vain to start the dozer so we could use it to help get the truck up the hill. Not one stick of firewood cut or moved. I thought about most of you this week when I learned the forecast is calling for up to 5" of rain which loosely translated means - I will be repairing the dozer in the rain and even after its fixed the truck will still be at the bottom of the hill. As a volunteer I find inspiration in knowing there are folks like each of you that encounter similar problems regularly during the course of a chosen career and press on every workday regardless.

Let's not let our differences in backgrounds, localities and personalities distract from the good found here. I hear some saws in the background so I will get off my perch before it is taken out from under me.

Ron

I agree with you 110%! Id love to see this thread get back on track! I feel like I tried to steer it in that direction but every time I do, somebody smarts off again. Like I just posted, the problem with me is that I don't quit, most real loggers don't, its just the way we are wired. If we quit when things got hard or something broke down, we wouldn't be who we are. Maybe its the sawdust in our veins from all the times we have bled doing this job, maybe its just the personality type, I don't know, all I know is we are too stubborn to quit or give up.

 

[northmanlogging]

My hat is off to all of you, whether formally educated or not, making a living (or retired from) doing something you are good at and enjoyed. That type of career is a blessing that many (probably most) don't have. Don't get me wrong, I know none of your careers is a cake walk. And that it took a lot of hard work and perseverance to get where you are.

I thought about my friend, NM, this weekend as my cutting buddy and I spent the day wrenching instead of cutting - 7 hours just to replace a bypass hose on the truck that some squirrel thought was tasty, followed by an hour trying in vain to start the dozer so we could use it to help get the truck up the hill. Not one stick of firewood cut or moved. I thought about most of you this week when I learned the forecast is calling for up to 5" of rain which loosely translated means - I will be repairing the dozer in the rain and even after its fixed the truck will still be at the bottom of the hill. As a volunteer I find inspiration in knowing there are folks like each of you that encounter similar problems regularly during the course of a chosen career and press on every workday regardless.

Let's not let our differences in backgrounds, localities and personalities distract from the good found here. I hear some saws in the background so I will get off my perch before it is taken out from under me.

Ron

meh, its snowing round here today, so im out with the war dept, luckily at the moment everything that can be running is, the dumb truck needs a motor, so it waiting on parts.

but i can afford a day to screw off... so im gonna do it

 

[Jhenderson]

Ummm youre the one who started attacking, not me. Whatever it was that pulled your panties into your crack isn't my problem. It has been my experience and is also my OPINION that having a degree doesn't make you one tiny bit better or smarter than somebody who has done this stuff all their life. To be honest, yeah it chaps my arse that those people charge people for their OPINION on how to harvest their timber. But, you know what they say, those that can, DO, those that cant, try to tell other people HOW. At the end of the day, when its all said and done, how bad did I miss those loads? When you ask me something that's in my wheelhouse, ITS MY FU***** JOB to know.
Tell ya what I will do, IF its not too wet to get across the creek to the logyard, I will post you a picture of a load of logs tomorrow and my "squirrel finding a nut" guess as to whats on it and what it will bring and you do the same. Then come Friday I will post the load ticket for that load and we will all see how good you are.
Like somebody else said, this thread was fun, until it wasn't. I started it just to talk about ONE damned good tree, and maybe get some conversation started along those lines and this is what it has evolved into. The problem with me, is I don't have any quit in me. When you start something, whether on the net or in person, it has to come to a resolution. Stomp my arse, prove me wrong, apologize if in the wrong or accept my apology if I was in the wrong. Its just that simple. Prove me wrong and I will apologize profusely, get proven wrong and you only have to admit it once. If not, that's when that other stuff comes into play.
HOPE YOU HAVE A WONDERFUL DAY!

I agree with you 110%! Id love to see this thread get back on track! I feel like I tried to steer it in that direction but every time I do, somebody smarts off again. Like I just posted, the problem with me is that I don't quit, most real loggers don't, its just the way we are wired. If we quit when things got hard or something broke down, we wouldn't be who we are. Maybe its the sawdust in our veins from all the times we have bled doing this job, maybe its just the personality type, I don't know, all I know is we are too stubborn to quit or give up.

I was refering to your continual attacks on university graduates. It shows you fear/ shame of your lack of higher education. The same way a dog attacks out of fear. But you knew that. Your comment was simply a way to ignore the facts about log buyers tally from a picture.

 

[Huntaholic]

I was refering to your continual attacks on university graduates. It shows you fear/ shame of your lack of higher education. The same way a dog attacks out of fear. But you knew that. Your comment was simply a way to ignore the facts about log buyers tally from a picture.

How do you figure that? I hit the mark on what the loads brought better than you or anybody else even tried. I HAVE ABSOLUTLEY NO SHAME OR FEAR for my "lack of higher education" as you so put it. You aren't the first ******* to try to look down his nose because you invested years of your life in a piece of paper. Grab your chainsaw and come on, I will give you a job. You will have to earn that days pay though. I aint paying you for what you think you know, Im paying you for what you can actually do.
Reminds me of another papered idiot I dealt with years ago. She wanted a self watering system put in for her thoroughbred horses. I quoted her the price and she replied "I don't make that much and Ive got a college education with degrees!" I told her her the same thing Ive said here, "you wasted that time getting a degree, you should have went to WORK instead". Yeah, I did that job too, even though she hated paying an uneducated hillbilly to do it, she knew she wasn't capable of doing it herself.

 

[slowp]

If you want this thread to go back "on track" quit insulting people. Just stop. It's pretty easy to do. Go ahead and play The Price Is Right because I will say I know nothing about Tennessee timber, and won't pretend that I do.

And it does sound like you have an inferiority complex, but I didn't go to school for that so wouldn't know. 2 to 4 years isn't really a very long time--don't know why you think it is. I also know of nobody, who can go off the streets right into a timber related job and get as much production as those who have been doing it for a while, but perhaps you are special. Everybody has to learn things, not to mention getting their muscles in shape. I did find setting chokers to be a bit yoga like and sore muscles from working at something on the weekend were gently stretched and the soreness worked out from the various contortions needed to get the choker under the log. The guy I helped was very patient and explained everything--no bluster.

There are workers in the woods with varying levels of education and I've never heard any of them regret going to school. I have heard complaints of those who didn't. In the 1980s, when logging was still going gangbusters, it was rumored that one timber faller was a former opera singer. I've dealt with a faller who is a minister on the side. It's a fairly diverse work force that way.

It works both ways. People need to ask each other questions and give answers without insults. When you go on about educated idiots, it is an insult.

I have never, ever seen or heard of anybody scaling log loads from photos. Ever. Scalers out here are still clambering on trucks, taking measurements, looking for defect. It's real, and money is at stake.

 

[Huntaholic]

I was refering to your continual attacks on university graduates. It shows you fear/ shame of your lack of higher education. The same way a dog attacks out of fear. But you knew that. Your comment was simply a way to ignore the facts about log buyers tally from a picture.

What you call shame is actually PRIDE. Why should I have wasted that time straight out of high school when I knew what I was going to do to make a living from the time I could walk? My childhood babysitter was a german sheppard that stayed on the logyard with me while my Daddy and Grandfather cut and pulled timber. Shame????? LMFAO! I DONT THINK SO! If anybody should be ashamed, its those who make their living off the sweat of someone else's brow.

 

[pdqdl]

Y'all need to play nicer. I've read most of this thread, and it seems to me everyone is making valid points. This squabble would be over if everyone would acknowledge the other guy's points when they are right, and respectfully disagree otherwise.

Then give it a rest.

 

[Huntaholic]

Y'all need to play nicer. I've read most of this thread, and it seems to me everyone is making valid points. This squabble would be over if everyone would acknowledge the other guy's points when they are right, and respectfully disagree otherwise. Then give it a rest.

That's all I could ask for or expect and Ive tried my best to make that clear! Im not trying to tell anybody how it works in Rhode Island or Washington, and I wont be told how stupid I am for knowing how it works in Tennessee.

 

[pdqdl]

I think the bone of contention arises when you cast aspersions on the folks who might have attended higher education. When that life-choice gets some mud flung at it, they might just believe you are insulting them specifically. So... the fight begins.

Admitting the college guys might have good & useful training in addition to real-world experience won't hurt you, and I haven't read any posts where folks were disparaging your experience. You might have extracted that from their defense about higher education, but I think you might have been a bit thin skinned also.

If somebody calls you out specifically, y'er entitled to defend. Otherwise, it isn't fair to poke everyone in the nose by talking bad about a whole class of people. You are certain to get a fight that way.

 

[Huntaholic]

I think the bone of contention arises when you cast aspersions on the folks who might have attended higher education. When that life-choice gets some mud flung at it, they might just believe you are insulting them specifically. So... the fight begins.

Admitting the college guys might have good & useful training in addition to real-world experience won't hurt you, and I haven't read any posts where folks were disparaging your experience. You might have extracted that from their defense about higher education, but I think you might have been a bit thin skinned also.

If somebody calls you out specifically, y'er entitled to defend. Otherwise, it isn't fair to poke everyone in the nose by talking bad about a whole class of people. You are certain to get a fight that way.

Fair enough! Hopefully this clears the air!

 

[Jhenderson]

For the record I’m a graduate of Coventry Vocational Technical High School, 1977

 

[catbuster]

Hi Patty!

Five years to finish my bachelor’s in Civil & Environmental Engineering at UofL. I think the word “Environmental” was just tacked on to make it seem fancier, we only had one class that had “environmental” stuff, and that had mostly to do with water and air quality. I got to learn the ecology stuff on my own.

For the record, I have two years experience in government (highway department) and lasted less than a year at a consulting firm if I had to say exactly how long I used what exactly my degree was “for.”

The rest have been out in the field working for either civil contractors or, well, I had a short time tipping trees. I was pretty good at it, but K Bridge & Marine was more enticing to me at the time.

I had a similar upbringing to the boys you mention, except dad was a plumber and my uncle was the excavating contractor, and I started on the farm only to get on the construction iron when I was old enough to drive.

Anyway, first job out of college was laying pipe. Paid well enough to survive, I had a company truck, and I wanted to work for the place I got hired at. I made my way up to foreman in a few months and started managing projects six months in.

I moved around a little and ended up at the biggest strictly-civil outfit I could find, then promptly quit and started working for myself. I gave that up in November and am still looking for the right thing to do.

Anyway, yeah I feel fulfilled in what I’ve been able to do. Now it’s time to give back as much as I can. The current group of people in the dirt world will not be around forever, the rate of hires to lost people is unsustainable, and it may be time to give them a chance and train a lot of the younger ones.

 

[slowp]

Catbuster: I tried to be a road engineer and it was too hard on the body. Sitting in front of a computer most of the time made me hurt more than stumbling through a fell and buck unit. I lasted 4 years and went back to being a not quite forester.

Huntaholic: You were lucky. You had family connections. Few people do and some of us who don't have chosen to go to school to learn and get a foot in the door. I did orchard work--thinned and picked fruit. In my part of the country, kids from the right families with connections got the easier work. Kids without worked in orchards. Fruit work paid poorly and in my opinion is just as hard of work for not very much money as logging. I scraped together enough money by to pay for an AAA degree in forestry from a community college. As I've said, the college helped us get that foot in the door. I started out on a tree planting crew which at that time, paid more than minimum wage and really helped with tuition. It also counted as woods working experience. That's the foot in the door part.

That was one way to start working in a field where one had no family connections. One way. I also found college to be much more eye opening and interesting than high school.

 

[Huntaholic]

Catbuster: I tried to be a road engineer and it was too hard on the body. Sitting in front of a computer most of the time made me hurt more than stumbling through a fell and buck unit. I lasted 4 years and went back to being a not quite forester.

Huntaholic: You were lucky. You had family connections. Few people do and some of us who don't have chosen to go to school to learn and get a foot in the door. I did orchard work--thinned and picked fruit. In my part of the country, kids from the right families with connections got the easier work. Kids without worked in orchards. Fruit work paid poorly and in my opinion is just as hard of work for not very much money as logging. I scraped together enough money by to pay for an AAA degree in forestry from a community college. As I've said, the college helped us get that foot in the door. I started out on a tree planting crew which at that time, paid more than minimum wage and really helped with tuition. It also counted as woods working experience. That's the foot in the door part.

That was one way to start working in a field where one had no family connections. One way. I also found college to be much more eye opening and interesting than high school.

Its hard, dangerous work but I wouldn't trade places with anybody I know anywhere. Im not the least bit "ashamed" as someone put it, of where I came from. Quite the contrary in fact. I grew up in an 8x40ish rat infested trailer with no running water and of course no bathroom or toilet. Until I was 12 years old I had never had a shower or taken a real bath. A bath consisted of heating a tub of water and scrubbing down with a washcloth. Water was carried from across the dirt road form my great grandmothers well and if you let it sit in the bucket 2 days it had wiggle tails in it. My grandfather was a terrible gambler and an alcoholic, but he knew how to use a saw and cut timber. Long about the time I was 10 years old my Dad finally got off his lazy ass and he and my grandfather went in business together logging. Up until then my mother worked and supported us all. I worked in the woods with them every summer when I was out of school, and from that point on, I took care of myself. School clothes? I bought them. First car? I bought it. For a lot of years, I almost hated my old man, but ya know what? He made me who I am today and you damned right Im proud of that.
The real "break" in getting into this business around here is people keep their word and do what they say they will do. 99.9% of my business is done with just a handshake. in 40 years of doing this, Ive signed a grand total of 1, yes ONE contract. Word of mouth and treating people fair and right keeps me covered up in work. I don't and have never owned a business card, my name is unlisted in the phone book, Ive never put an add in the paper or on the radio, and I average cutting 1.5 mil ft a year.
I sincerely didn't mean to step on any toes with my "educated idiot" comment, its just that around here, unless you are doing contracts for the state or bidding on jobs, its a waste of time. I don't do either of those things and I will quit before I have to do that to get work. I realize that in MOST states, the red tape requires that you have those degrees, but thank GOD its not that way here!

 

[pdqdl]

You seem to have pretty good composition, grammar, and punctuation skills for country bumpkin. I suspect that your heritage might have included a bit more emphasis on book learning than you have suggested. If not, then you should consider yourself lucky to have done so well.

 

[Huntaholic]

You seem to have pretty good composition, grammar, and punctuation skills for country bumpkin. I suspect that your heritage might have included a bit more emphasis on book learning than you have suggested. If not, then you should consider yourself lucky to have done so well.

I've always been blessed when it comes to reading and understanding language and composition. I could read the Literature book in high school at the start of the year and never have to read it again all year. My wife has some formal education, which she took way after we were married. LOL I always had to proof read her work before she turned it in and she had a 98%+ percentile in those classes.
Common math is a breeze for me, but algebra, well that crap is all greek to me! Im just glad algebra wasn't a required credit to graduate when I went to school!
I don't really consider myself lucky, not nearly as much as I consider myself BLESSED!

 

[slowp]

Nobody has had a perfect life. You were raised and shown how to do something early, as your statements about being in a log yard at age 10 say. That's a foot in the door, regardless of being poor and the rest of it.

Not gonna get into a "I walked uphill to school in neck deep snow both ways" bit, although I do hear it is quite deep today in Up Nort Wisconsin.

 

[slowp]

Nobody has had a perfect life. You were raised and shown how to do something early, as your statements about being in a log yard at age 10 say. That's a foot in the door, regardless of being poor and the rest of it.

Algebra was a required course for my state. We had to soldier on through it, and then more in college along with trig and statistics. Statistics is part of timber cruising.

Not gonna get into a "I walked uphill to school in neck deep snow both ways" bit, although I do hear it is quite deep today in Up Nort Wisconsin.

 

[northmanlogging]

the "educated idiots" can go hand in hand with "I've been doing this xx years", both are idiots but lumping all folks into one file or the other pretty much puts you in one file or the other...

I've had my fair share of college idiots, as well as the guys that don't even mention the schooling they have cause its evident in their work.
Just as I've worked, or tried to around the folks that were born in a briar patch spitting caulk boots and sharpening daddies axe... that couldn't figure out which end of a choker went where...
As well as some folks I was pretty sure until recently were completely illiterate, but one of the best damned operators I've had the pleasure to work with and for. (turns our the ****ers just too stubborn to wear glasses) or a CPA that didn't even bat an eye at wallowing in the muck with me and picked up most of my choker tricks just by watching, even taught me a couple.
Anyway, point is, books and covers etc

Though I would appreciate if folks from both camps the properly schooled, and the ditch schooled would stop looking down their collective noses at everyone that isn't from their school, then maybe ya all could work together and create something really impressive.