New sugar maple

[Grenfell]

I bought a new sugar maple after returning the crappy one I had posted about earlier. This one was field grown from seed and they dug it up for me when I arrived at the nursery and it was balled and burlapped. Hopefully I chose a good one. It has a small pruning wound at the base, but seems to be closing nicely.

I've tried to follow the ISA planting instructions as closely as possible. Dug a wide, shallow hole, mulched, etc.

I planted it as high as I thought was proper. Did I get it right?

TIA,
Chris

 

[treeseer]

much better! care for it well and we hope it grows nicely for you.

 

[Grenfell]

Perfect, thanks Guy!

 

[Sheshovel]

Just be sure that pruneing wound does not hava any bugs in it!!

 

[Grenfell]

Just be sure that pruneing wound does not hava any bugs in it!!

lol...no, it's clean. It was still a little wet in the picture I posted. It's dry and clean and looks like it is sealing nicely. I'll be keeping an eye on it though! Thanks,
C.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Did anyone else notice the root flare on the left has a collar? That's because it's an adventitious root, one that grew off trunk because it was buried.
The funny bend, and old wound about an inch above ground level, is the graft union. Correct planting grade is about 6 to 11 inches below that.
I could be wrong, (I never am), but, I'd say we're still 6 to 11 inches too deep. Actually, 5 to 10 inches too deep, because we're an inch above grade.
This is poor stock, poorly grafted, and still too deep, but hey, the pine straw looks cool. We don't have that stuff up here.
This all begs the question, "What do you do when the tree has been planted too deep for years and now has a new adventitious new "root flare"?
Most experts say to abandone the old root flare and let the new roots become the root flare. With older trees, what choice do you have? With this tree, because it's new, I'd look for the original flare and then decide.
Really, just from looking at the tree, I wouldn't have bought it. Forget digging down into the ball and deciding if I should start cutting big old roots off. Just say "no" to bad root structure.

 

[treeseer]

"This one was field grown from seed"

Mike I took these words from the first post as true. no idea if the bulge is a graft union or not. yeah that collar is strange--I missed that feature. this is frustrating--we could get to the root of th ematte rin a minute if we were there!

 

[Grenfell]

Hi Mike,

The nursery I bought this from is reputable as far as I can tell. Unless they are specifically lying to me, this was grown from seed. They were emphatic about this.

I wondered about a graft union as well (since it resembled my original purchase) but perhaps it could have been from a competing shoot? i.e. the original seedling had two shoots sprouting and they trimmed one off once it got growing and trained the remaining shoot to become the leader?

Underneath the soil line in the picture, I didn't see any more trunk - just the root ball and normal looking roots. Then again, I didn't disturb the root ball too much when I planted it. With my original tree (which was definitely planted too deep) I could see several more inches of trunk.

If I could ask, what makes this poor stock? If it is, I'm out of nurseries in this city.

 

[treeseer]

I didn't disturb the root ball too much when I planted it. If I could ask, what makes this poor stock? :

You don't know until you look. Rule #2, after Find the Flare!, is to shake the dirt off the rootball so you can find the roots, and straighten them if need be. It's hard to get this step into ISA etc literature, but for woody root systems, done in fall, it's ok for most trees. Disturb away, or you're buying a pig in a poke as they say down heah.

do you see the collar mike speaks of? not normal at all on a root.

re out of nurseries, you and the rest of the country (world?) have a short list of ones that dependably grow good root systems.

 

[Grenfell]

Mike is spot on...

Son of a b!tch.

Mike, you were completely correct. I didn't want to believe it (hence my half-arsed attempt at explaining it). Thanks again for spotting it and I won't question your tree knowledge again...

I dug down around the trunk and what did I find? Yes, it is grafted. Yes, it is buried too deep. Yes, there are a bunch of random, adventitious roots poking out of the root stock trunk all over the place.

See the attached pics. The second one shows it clearly. That's where I stopped digging and started banging my head against the wall, so to speak.

I didn't even bother trying to find the flare. I'm too frustrated, angry and did I mention angry?

All...I...want...is...to...plant...a...tree...for...my...son.

I'm going to #*$&^@ tromp out into the forest with my copy of "Trees in Canada" by John Farrar, identify a suitable sugar maple, bring some burlap and harvest the ???? thing myself.

There aren't any more nurseries around here that I know of. These were the two "big and reputable" ones here. Or so I thought.

Here's where I bought this one -

http://www.seedlingnursery.com/

I'm going to call the manager and ask me to explain how his "grown from seed" tree suddenly decided to spontaneously graft itself and plant itself too deep.

 

[treeseer]

I stopped digging and started banging my head against the wall, so to speak.
I didn't even bother trying to find the flare.
I'm going to #*$&^@ tromp out into the forest with my copy of "Trees in Canada" by John Farrar, identify a suitable sugar maple, bring some burlap and harvest the ???? thing myself. :

That's a plan, bareroot a wild one.

don't give up on the one you planted; adventitious roots can sustain a tree.

Just plant a wild one elsewhere. It will be interesting to compare their growth.

Maas, you da man! My time here is not all wasted if I get trained to be more observant.

 

[Grenfell]

That's a plan, bareroot a wild one.

don't give up on the one you planted; adventitious roots can sustain a tree.

Just plant a wild one elsewhere. It will be interesting to compare their growth.

Maas, you da man! My time here is not all wasted if I get trained to be more observant.

It seems like this nursery practice is all too common. Planting a grafted tree too deep. Is this done knowingly? - i.e. to forget about the original root system and just let the tree develop a new root system sprouting out of the trunk of the grafted root stock?

The adventitious roots do appear to be growing outwards away from the trunk and they are neatly attached.

This all begs the question, "What do you do when the tree has been planted too deep for years and now has a new adventitious new "root flare"?

Indeed. So what should I do, in your opinion? Do I let this tree grow or should I head out into the woods and get one of Mother Nature's finest?

Mike - what do you think?

P.S. Treeseer - your time is not at all wasted. Your observations have taught me a fair bit in the short time I've been here.

P.P.S. Mike, I'd be happy to send you some of my straw. Got a bag of it in the shed.

Cheers,
C.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

What happens is in large nursery operations, at the time of planting, is the tree is poked into the ground by a machine on the back of a tractor. This tends to push roots all to one side, because of the forward movement of the machine. Planting depth is adjustable, but I suspect set to the deep side to keep the seedling standing, plus, just the bouncy travel of a tractor compared to the small size of the seedling have to make for uneven planting depth.
Then, a few times a year, they plow between rows of trees to keep down weeds. Each time a bit of this turned up soil and weeds ends up on top of the tree. as time goes on it gets deeper and deeper.
When you buy a tree, think of the soil as nothing more than packaging. It's something to be removed at the time of planting, in fact, you want to dig down and find the flare before you buy it. I also look for buttress roots that are evenly spaced, at the same level, and there should be at least four or five of them. Hows a tree going to stand if it only has one buttress root?
Can you buy bare root stock? This way there's no surprise. The roots are as important, if not more so, that the top of the tree. Don't you want to know what you're buying.
I'm now not fully convinced that's a graft union, like you say, it could have just been a co-dominant stem that was removed.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Mike - what do you think?

I'd return it. The tree is too deep and to raise it would mean cutting off the large advantitious roots above the flare. It already has a large scar from co-dominant stem removal.
At the very least, dig it up, find the flare, and replant.

 

[treeseer]

At the very least, dig it up, find the flare, and replant.

What if the original roots are weakened by their previous burial, and cannot sustain the crown?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

What if the original roots are weakened by their previous burial, and cannot sustain the crown?

Then it will die. Better now, while warrenteed, than to have it die in years to come when it's just getting to the size where it is highly valued, from girdling roots.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Man! I knew I didn't know much about trees, but hanging around here is beginning to teach me just how much "much" I don't know!

 

[Grenfell]

Well, I called the nursery and spoke with the manager. He's a nice enough guy. He confirmed the tree was grown from a seedling, not grafted. It was correction pruned when it was younger. So that's one mystery solved.

However, I showed him the planting pics that I posted here and he told me to plant the tree basically at the level of the pruning wound - i.e. slightly higher than it is now.

I asked him about the adventitious roots and he said they should be buried.

I don't think he has the education or perhaps experience to understand what has happened. I'm not going to be the one to educate him, I got the distinct impression I would be wasting my breath. He said he would warranty the tree in the spring if there was a problem with it. I don't think a return/refund at this point is going to work. I gotta admit, I'm a little tired of educating/battling my local nurseries. I've got a background in biology (Honours BSc in Biology) so I'm open minded to stuff like this. I have some knowledge of plant form and function on a molecular level but it's funny how I was never taught practical knowledge such as how to correctly plant a tree. Or maybe I was at the university pub that lecture...

I DID dig down to the root flare. It is about another 2" deeper than the last photo I took. The root stock has a bit of a curve to it but I found the root flare and the first order roots.

I'm thinking that I might re-plant the tree at the proper height and expose the root flare and carefully prune off the adventitious roots. If the original root system cannot support the tree in the Spring, so be it, I'll get a new one.

Sound like a plan? Thanks again, particularily to Guy and Mike, for your help/advice.

P.S. I found an excellent resource about these exact roots -

http://www.dnr.wa.gov/wcfc/treelink/treelinkspr04.pdf

Here's an extract -

Impacts of Buried Root
Collars on Trees

Trees with buried root collars are often
weakened, stressed and predisposed to
secondary pests and diseases. Buried root
collars may stimulate the formation of
adventitious roots near the soil surface
from the trunk tissues. Adventitious roots
attempt to compensate for the lack of
oxygen not available to the buried roots.
While the adventitious roots supply the
tree with some water, nutrients and
oxygen, they are not usually large enough
to provide mechanical support for an
older tree. Consequently, a tree may
appear reasonably healthy, only to fail
eventually as the main roots deteriorate to
the point where they are no longer able to
support the tree.

 

[Grenfell]

I dug it up down to the flare. What a flare it is.

I'm completely stumped, pardon the pun.

The trunk curves down to the flare where there are two main roots (marked by arrows in the picture). If I cut off the adventitious roots, the tree has nothing to support it...

At what depth/how should I plant it? TIA,
Chris

 

[treeseer]

hey gren,

cover those root ends please! the adventitious roots are not girdling so they are not bad. On this statement, USUALLY is the key word:

"While the adventitious roots supply the
tree with some water, nutrients and
oxygen, they are not *usually* large enough
to provide mechanical support for an
older tree.

Absolutes about trees are uncertain.