New sugar maple

[Kneejerk Bombas]

That tree is a perfect example of what I wrote about earlier, where the tree gets dragged as it is being mechanically planted as a sapling. The whole root system is pulled toward the rear of the machine as it moves forward. Then as dirt is piled up against the trunk, adventitious roots grow off the stem.
The mechanical planter was being run at too fast a pace is my guess, for production.

Take the tree back and get a replacement or refund, it is worthless, unless all you want is a short lived, poor growing, unstable, piece of crap tree.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

 

[Trinity Honoria]

That tree is a perfect example of what I wrote about earlier, where the tree gets dragged as it is being mechanically planted as a sapling. The whole root system is pulled toward the rear of the machine as it moves forward. Then as dirt is piled up against the trunk, adventitious roots grow off the stem.
The mechanical planter was being run at too fast a pace is my guess, for production.

Take the tree back and get a replacement or refund, it is worthless, unless all you want is a short lived, poor growing, unstable, piece of crap tree.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

as a simple home owner, where do i get a tree that isn't a "piece of crap" tree???

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The best thing to do is dig down and look at the root flare before you buy, or buy bare root stock.
Nursery stock is highly variable, even from the same growers. Garden centers and nurseries get their stock from several different sources too.
First look for the type of tree you want. Then look for good structure, typically a single leader with evenly spaced limbs. It's nice to have limbs spaced along the height of the trunk too, not with all the lower limbs striped off 2/3's of the way up. Check for large codominant stems, and those that were removed and left a big scar. Take a look for cracks along the stem.
If this all looks good, check for a root flare, if you don's see one, dig down until you do. If they look like poor Grenfell's roots, pass.

 

[treeseer]

Mike, your analysis of the cause is excellent.

Your recommendation however is impractical, and your analogy to pig parts and fashion accessories is way off the mark. That tree has adapted by developing a secondary root system that is balanced and radially oriented. I do not see a defect there; do not fix what is not broken!

The notion that the original roots will die is unqualified supposition, and even if they slowly did, the new roots would anchor and sustain the tree. Please explain how you know it will inevitably be "a short lived, poor growing, unstable, piece of crap tree."

If that was correct, every tree in nature that grows secondary roots in response to flood or avalanche or or or would be thus, correct?

 

[Grenfell]

Thanks again for the info guys. Treeseer - I did re-bury the roots immediately after I took the picture. Unfortunately, I accidentally snapped one of the smaller ones by stepping on it. My ill fate know no bounds it seems.

I also think Mike is correct regarding the cause of the root formation. It explains the orientation of the original root system and the subsequent formation of the adventitious roots.

I'm kinda stuck on the outcome bit though. I see both points...why start a new long lived tree on such a bad foot? On the other hand, it seems to have adapted with well-formed (if adventitious) roots, so perhaps it could do alright?

But then what about long-term? Will it ever develop a flare? Will the adventitious roots be able to mechanically support a large heavy tree?

Man, I don't know.

I really did wish that nurseries would take the time to do things properly. A few more man hours to ensure the tree started right would do wonders.

I've replanted it at the depth I had it originally. I'll wait until Spring. The nursery said they would warranty it if it died. I found another nursery that has some larger maples out in the field. They'll be available in the Spring. I'm going to go and check them out then.

I will examine the structure thoroughly. I will also insist on examining the root flare before I take it home. If I find a good one, maybe I'll plant it instead of this one.

 

[treeseer]

I really did wish that nurseries would take the time to do things properly. A few more man hours to ensure the tree started right would do wonders.

Gren you've done a great job of communicating your experience here. I urge you to do the same in the direction of nurseries and landscapers thru their trade assns. They hear consumers a lot louder than arborists.

 

[Trinity Honoria]

at this point, i am beyond thinking i would be able to pick a tree that isn't a 'piece of crap' tree... *for me,* i think the best solution when i get to the point of cleaning out the jungle in my back yard and am ready to plant, is to find a person i trust (arborist, horticulturist) (i live near Clemson that has a huge horticulture graduate program)-- who does know trees to help me on locating what i will buy...

this thread has been great with the information, the pictures posted to get responses... thanks to all...

 

[treeseer]

cleaning out the jungle in my back yard .

that jungle contains many valuable plants. The best thing to do is to identify and remove the worst weeds--honeysuckle, briers etc--then get the rest identified before they get cut.

A landscape architect down the road from me proudly showed me his "cleaned out" forest. His brush piles had blueberries, viburnum and other excellent ornamentals. I told him he should get a refund from that program that gave him a degree. :alien:

I'll be near there in january, pm me if you want to schedule some work.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The notion that the original roots will die is unqualified supposition, and even if they slowly did, the new roots would anchor and sustain the tree. Please explain how you know it will inevitably be "a short lived, poor growing, unstable, piece of crap tree."

If that was correct, every tree in nature that grows secondary roots in response to flood or avalanche or or or would be thus, correct?

The problem lies in the fact that even though the tree has grown secondary roots, the trunk is still buried, and subject to girdling roots. In time, everything below those roots will be girdled. All the original root flare will be choked off, thus killing the whole tree from just under those adventitious roots down.
Will this happen right away? Nope. It'll happen down the road, most likely at a time when the tree is dependent on those very roots.
If all you have is roots underground, there is rarely a problem, crossing roots will just graft together. Once you have trunk underground, you have two dissimilar tissues that cannot graft together. Once impacted, they choke each other off.
Remember, this now underground trunk is expanding in diameter, and the roots growing off it will be a huge percentage of the total roots. The certain girdling will be a huge stress on the tree as well as introduce a huge underground pocket of decay. There is a very good chance there will be a matching percentage of the crown die back as the girdling roots kill off the underground trunk and roots attached to it.
Can some riparian species overcome burying? Sure, but I'm not paying hard earned money to find out, or wait for the transition to happen. The tree's growth rate is obviously slowed down during this transition period too. Most people want their newly planted tree to get established and start growing fast, not wait around for years for a secondary root system to maybe grow, as the original root system and lower trunk are choked off and die.

 

[treeseer]

the trunk is still buried, and subject to girdling roots. In time, everything below those roots will be girdled. All the original root flare will be choked off, thus killing the whole tree ...Once you have trunk underground, you have two dissimilar tissues that cannot graft together. Once impacted, they choke each other off... The certain girdling will be a huge stress on the tree as well as introduce a huge underground pocket of decay. .

Sorry Mike, this doomsday scewnario is still just unqualified supposition to me. Everywhere you say 'will", I would say "may", not even "likely". oN what basis do you say it's certain that this decay and strangulation **will** occur?

On a sugar maple it is more likely than a green ash or elm, true. But I still think odds are the tree will adapt, based on what it's done so far. the odds will be improved if the soil is porous and drains well, so the original root system survives. Given that the new roots are just above the originals, the tree should grow well imo..

I do agree with everything else you said; does that help? :umpkin: if there were better options at the nursery, it should go back. And the best option is still to go out in your woods and dig one up yourself.

 

[NickfromWI]

I learn a lot when Mike and Treeseer argue.

Thanks guys!

love
nick

 

[Sheshovel]

I would follow Mikes advice and not waste your time on this tree.Return it now not later,it's probably better to plant it now rather than spring.I also agree with Mike as to the decay underground of the trunk.It will happen.

 

[NickfromWI]

If it were JUST a tree, I'd say just leave it. But since you paid money for it, I'd want nothing but the best. That is the reason I would return it. Not because the tree may or may not be "bad" but simply because it's your cash and you deserve the best possible chance at a healthy tree.

And now that you have a better idea of what to look for, you'll get that "best chance" tree.

love
nick

 

[treeseer]

"the decay underground of the trunk.It will happen."

She, on what experience or reference do you base this absolute statement?

"you deserve the best possible chance at a healthy tree."

Nick, the poster has already said he has already gotten the best this nursery has to offer. What specifically do you propose?
O and Nick, Mike and I are not arfuing, just respectfully debating finer points of tree care. It's nice to talk to him about something besides reduction cuts.

 

[Trinity Honoria]

i, for one, in observing this ongoing debate, have determined that no amount of reading this list will give me the courage to buy a tree all by myself... i will need a chaperone...

and there's nothing wrong with facing one's shortcomings... and in this arena, i am beyond 'short...'

 

[jp hallman]

I'll have to say, I'm a logger not an arborist. Nature has a way of surviving. I've seen young trees ripped from the ground by skidders and cats. Come back a few years later and some, not all of course, have re-rooted themselves and have prospered. Sure, not the ideal tree in the woods. It's a few years behind it's unmolested brethren. But a fine living tree none the less. What's wrong with a bit of "character"?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Sorry Mike, this doomsday scewnario is still just unqualified supposition to me. Everywhere you say 'will", I would say "may", not even "likely". oN what basis do you say it's certain that this decay and strangulation **will** occur?

I based my opinion on excavating literally thousands of trees. Any time a trunk is buried, it will become girdled, that is a simple fact. In time, the trunk below the adventitious roots will become gridled and die. Unless the tree dies, it will happen.
Once the roots are dead, all that is left are the adventitious roots, and:

"Adventitious roots
attempt to compensate for the lack of
oxygen not available to the buried roots.
While the adventitious roots supply the
tree with some water, nutrients and
oxygen, they are not usually large enough
to provide mechanical support for an
older tree. Consequently, a tree may
appear reasonably healthy, only to fail
eventually as the main roots deteriorate to
the point where they are no longer able to
support the tree."

 

[treeseer]

Any time a trunk is buried, it will become girdled, that is a simple fact. In time, the trunk below the adventitious roots will become gridled and die. Unless the tree dies, it will happen. ]

ok then, this is just a case where one person's experience does not agree with another's. Mine is more along the lines of Mr. Hallman's, that trees can and WILL adapt, where the roots are initially oriented in a radial direction they will PROBABLY not tend to severely girdle.

Grenfell is out of options with this nursery, it seems, and my advice is still to move another tree out of the woods and watch them both grow.

 

[TreesnHorses]

I concur- you guys are invaluable in your arguments, and thank you Gren for the question and subsequent follow-up. I'm a newbie at this stuff (and Grenfel, I'm with you- as an arborist with a degree in Biology and I have almost NO practical skills from that bio degree!!!) so I love this forum.
I would agree- take the tree back. Just because that one tree is poor doesn't mean there are no good trees at the whole nursery! Be more picky this time, now that YOU know what to look for as opposed to what they're trying to sell you. If you find one that is only moderately poor, you can work with it to maximize its potential. That one you have, indeed, looks crappy to me too.
I was just working on some trees some folks planted down at our church this week- ugh. Buried WAYYY too deep, junky stock, one with a root basket still entirely intact...I dug up, replanted, spread out roots. I don't know if they'll make it but it was worth a shot.

 

[Grenfell]

Well, it is snowing now and the ground is freezing quickly, so the tree will stay planted until spring.

I will likely try and find another tree to replace it though. There is one more nursery I can check (the two I have already visited I won't be returning to). If, and that's a big IF, they have viable stock, I'll purchase a new tree provided it has correct form and a well-developed root system. This other nursery informed me they have some nice specimens in the field. I will insist upon inspecting the root flare on site. If they don't let me, I'm not going to bother purchasing. If the trunk/flare has been buried, forget it.

The other thing I'll do is to visit our farm or woods and bareroot a wild tree, as suggested. I'll forsake the 'instant tree' for a smaller but ultimately better tree in the long run.

Funny enough, I found a little maple sapling growing in my backyard beside a wood pile. I thought it was a sugar maple at first and I thought 'Perfect, I'll just transplant this little guy to the front yard', but it turned out to be A. planatoides (as per the buds - purplish/plump vs. brown and sharp-pointed). Ah well...

If the existing tree survives and grows, perhaps I'll let it be and keep an eye on the root system. I can always perform a RCE every few years and see if it develops girdling roots.

Many thanks again to all for the advice, esp. Mike and treeseer, I've learned a lot.

Cheers,
Chris