Older Saw theory

[ciscoguy01]

Soooo, this is my theory and I'm interested to see what everyone thinks and get some input... I've been doing alot of thinking about the older saws lately and how they just seem to last and last. I know they are heavier, don't have near the power to weight, they smoke alot, harder to get parts for, and just in general aren't built like the new saws for making wood cutting much easier. With this in mind, what exactly makes them last so long? I doubt the metals used back then were superior to todays. I also don't think the engineering was any better at all. Most of the same basic designs used 40 yrs ago are the exact same as today, 2 strokes in general are this way... Decomp and air filtration are really the only huge differences, and maybe a little bit with the bearings and whatnot, i.e. the 3 piece crank design and all. That all being said, what made them last longer. What caused those saws to last 30+ yrs vs. the ones that only last around 10 or so. The big thought in difference that comes to mind is the speed. None of the older saws turned 13000 rpms. Alot of them turned only like 8 or 9000. Even 11-12000 was alot for them... I think the speed is the key to what makes them fail so much sooner. I could be wrong here, but think of a diesel. A high revving diesel dies at 5000 rpms, some more, but not a whole bunch more. Look how long they last, 1/2 million miles isn't uncommon for them at all. Does this sound feasible?? This being said, if one were to tone down a saw, say from 13,000 to 11,500 would it make it last longer and give it greater torque?? Or would it just bog it down and make it doggier than it is compared to the old torque monsters??? This is where I'd like EVERYONES input... What do you guys have for me on this subject??? Am I way off base here??? Tell me whatcha think. Good or bad... This is a VERY interesting subject for me...

opcorn:

 

[Urbicide]

A good comparison would be to look at cars from that era. I will keep it simple with 2 words: heavy metal. opcorn:

 

[Wortown Mick]

Torque is equally if not more important than horsepower to complete a given task.

I like the new saws though, when it comes to working.

Cars are a perfect analogy, newers great daily. But theres still a place for the old ones.

 

[scotclayshooter]

Every turn an engine does is a turn less that it will do!!
and if its doing 13500rpm its turning a lot more in a day/year than a saw ONLY doing 11500 rpm
i muffler modded my fs250 strimmer but instead of using more revs i stick out more line to use the torque, yep the gaurds are removed i manually control the line lenth and it will only run for 30 mins instead of 40mins on a tank of mix but boy will it cut!!

 

[mountainlake]

Most modern diesel truck engines are turning between 1500 to 1800 RPM going down the road, max out a little over 2000 RPM. I think the older saws had a little lower exhaust ports keeping the RPM's lower but once in the cut way more torque. Seems like Huskys xp series has high ports high speed and not good torgue, now they're coming out with xtra torgue models again. Maybe figureing out some of us like a saw that doesn't die as soon as you lean on it a little. These saws are running around 8000 to 9500 RPM when cutting even if they no load at 14500. Steve

 

[Blazin]

I would'nt say your way off base at all. Screamin RPMs are definitely a factor on the life of any engine without a doubt. Although I have come to the realization that the good ole line "they don't build them like they used to" holds alot of truth. I've been turnin wrenches for the better part of 30 years and things have definitely gotten cheaper built, Grades of metal used for parts especially. I'm guessin it's all part of the plan to lighten things up and stay cost effective with the rising costs of every raw material needed to manufacture anything.

 

[Dadatwins]

The older saws called for more oil mix, and did not burn as hot or clean, thus all the smoke. More lubricant in the crankcase. Todays saws are so restrictive with EPA that they burn much hotter to keep the smoke down and burn all the fuel they can. Anything that burns hot will eventually burn out.

 

[spike60]

I think you're right on target Cisco! I wish I had more time to jump in here. Probably later.

 

[djmercer1]

as another idea, lets compare two modern v8's, one used in nascar, truck racing etc with operating rpm >>10000, however a similar engine on the road is only ~6000 redline, then consider the life of both engines. so, id say that there is definately a connection between rpm and engine life.

i dont think you can really compare the service life of diesel power plants and gas engines. the difference between spark ignition and compression ignition means that the engine block, head and other parts are engineered much differently to withstand vastly different operating conditions and i dont think there is much of a comparision.

 

[Stihl 041S]

This is a joke thread right? Wright flyer had a 356 casting, so does an 041 or 361. RPM? Honda engines rev and last as long as 3 old V8 s.

 

[mountainlake]

This is a joke thread right? Wright flyer had a 356 casting, so does an 041 or 361. RPM? Honda engines rev and last as long as 3 old V8 s.

No, some people are a joke, might as well turn these saws at 30000 RPM. The only reason Honda engines last turning high RPM's is better materials now. Diesel truck engines used to get 400000 to 500000 between rebuilds now a million miles is common thanks to better materials. Steve

 

[djmercer1]

A good comparison would be to look at cars from that era. I will keep it simple with 2 words: heavy metal. opcorn:

you really got me going now....great conversation though....

lets compare some of my vehicles:
1)5 gmc 35 dually, 324 v8
2)1998 f250, 5.4l triton
3)2007 3500hd, 6.6l duramax(dont get me started on the epa crap)

anyway, the 56 has a totally cast engine construction while the other two have misture of aluminum and cast. the old gmc has no gimics, the other 2 have varying amounts of computer engine control with the 07 duramax being the worst thing ive ever seen.

my questions/complaints:
1)how the h3ll does the manufacture paln to keep the head gaskets intact on new cars/trucks? last time i checked aluminum and cast iron expand at different rates with heat and if you restrain the parts together you are adding stress to the parts...
2)the coil over cylinder system is definately a creation of the devil. the ford gets a set of coil packs about every 100000km to the tue of about $2000, how about try changing the plugs in one of these b**tards? no wonder spark plugs o magically last 160k, the manufacture doesnt want to change 'em
3)recently, the egr tripped the check engine light in the 07 duramax, problem is then the 'automatic' exhaust filter system doesnt work. so, you are then infact clogging your exhaust filter as you drive, could be an expensive day if you over heat the power plant..
4)simple maintance is now a nightmare, no engine space in the engine bay. i never owned an old diesel truck, but i had a 1980 3/4 ton gmc in the 90's, thing had the 454 and to work on the engine you could sit on the fender and put your feet on the ends of the valve covers and work away, the f250 doesnt have enough room for a bottle of oil in the engine bay--service nightmare.

as a side note, dad bought the 1980 gmc new for <$10000 on the road, the 07 duramax cost $75000 last spring while the f250 cost me $30500 new. the 56 was bought new for about $1500.

im going to end this before my blood pressure goes up...

dave

 

[Peacock]

This is a joke thread right? Wright flyer had a 356 casting, so does an 041 or 361. RPM? Honda engines rev and last as long as 3 old V8 s.

Yep, you said it. Older domestic truck and car engines were made from inferior alloys and had terrible castings compared to modern engines. Take a dozen SBC blocks and compare the core shift between them and it's terrible quality control. How many old SBC's wore cam lobes off at 60k or earlier? I know I've seen a bunch.

Modern engines have select fit pistons, bearings and rings for better longevity, power and emmissions.

 

[Peacock]

you really got me going now....great conversation though....

lets compare some of my vehicles:
1)5 gmc 35 dually, 324 v8
2)1998 f250, 5.4l triton
3)2007 3500hd, 6.6l duramax(dont get me started on the epa crap)

anyway, the 56 has a totally cast engine construction while the other two have misture of aluminum and cast. the old gmc has no gimics, the other 2 have varying amounts of computer engine control with the 07 duramax being the worst thing ive ever seen.

my questions/complaints:
1)how the h3ll does the manufacture paln to keep the head gaskets intact on new cars/trucks? last time i checked aluminum and cast iron expand at different rates with heat and if you restrain the parts together you are adding stress to the parts...
They've been doing it sucessfully for quite a few years now!

2)the coil over cylinder system is definately a creation of the devil. the ford gets a set of coil packs about every 100000km to the tue of about $2000, how about try changing the plugs in one of these b**tards? no wonder spark plugs o magically last 160k, the manufacture doesnt want to change 'em
I spent a few years as Ford dealer tech. The COP system does suck on Ford's, but you have no reason to replace more than one coil at a time on yours. I can swap plugs on those in about 1.5hrs.
3)recently, the egr tripped the check engine light in the 07 duramax, problem is then the 'automatic' exhaust filter system doesnt work. so, you are then infact clogging your exhaust filter as you drive, could be an expensive day if you over heat the power plant..
4)simple maintance is now a nightmare, no engine space in the engine bay. i never owned an old diesel truck, but i had a 1980 3/4 ton gmc in the 90's, thing had the 454 and to work on the engine you could sit on the fender and put your feet on the ends of the valve covers and work away, the f250 doesnt have enough room for a bottle of oil in the engine bay--service nightmare.
You needed the room. They broke down twice as often!
as a side note, dad bought the 1980 gmc new for <$10000 on the road, the 07 duramax cost $75000 last spring while the f250 cost me $30500 new. the 56 was bought new for about $1500.

im going to end this before my blood pressure goes up...

dave

Check your quote....

 

[berryman70]

I think a shorter service life is engineered/designed into todays products, if everyone kept the same saw, car, truck, motorcycle for 30 years there wouldn't be much of a market for new. I read some where a motorcycle company (well known american built) changed a crankcase design so the only way for repair you would have to buy a new crankcase which was very expensive, it made buying new a better option.
BTW I have had my Harley Davidson for over 30 years, longer then the ex & present wife
put together.

 

[djmercer1]

Check your quote....

check point 1-by-1:

1)sure theyre using the heads, but how many are being warped/blown or suffer blown gaskets in short order. the mazda b2600(mitsubishi engine), chevy cavalier(96 & later), the ford tritons among the worst offenders, but honda and toyota are also affected. the fords also have a nasty habit of blowing out the plug in cylinder 7&8 taking the threads with it.
2)my ford dealer claims 5.5hrs clock time to change the plugs, i know one of the service guys and he does work in his garage in off hour, it still takes him 4 hours. to my mind since the fuels system and the like is out of the way and the coil packs are only about $100, its not worth my while to leave in the truck, considering the service life is probably shorter than the plug, and to cme back in a month when another goes. btw, why is it always that 7&8 are the first to go?
4)granted, im hard on vehicles(snow blades, salt hoppers etc), but the trend seems to be that while the new vehicle is lasting longer it takes much more work to get it there. i had an old 93 mazda b2600, it went 500000km requiring only 1 clutch and a head about every 80000km. sold it because the frame rusted out(d@mn box section chassis) but the guy fixed her and now shes got 650000km on orginal block, the 1980 gm is still going strong without any motor work yet.

im not going to dispute the cmfort of the new trucks, but if you do break down, you might as well start walking as opeing the hood...

dave

 

[Peacock]

check point 1-by-1:

1)sure theyre using the heads, but how many are being warped/blown or suffer blown gaskets in short order. the mazda b2600(mitsubishi engine), chevy cavalier(96 & later), the ford tritons among the worst offenders, but honda and toyota are also affected. the fords also have a nasty habit of blowing out the plug in cylinder 7&8 taking the threads with it.
Most of the problems aren't related to the head or block material at all. It's cheap bolts, gaskets and other cost cutting. Iron covers that up some. Still put a lot of headgaskets on old cast engines, prematurely. The Triton gaskets don't blow, they leak oil from the pass. rear from a port that is behind the rear most head bolt. Did many under warranty. They rectified it with a different gasket.
2)my ford dealer claims 5.5hrs clock time to change the plugs, i know one of the service guys and he does work in his garage in off hour, it still takes him 4 hours. to my mind since the fuels system and the like is out of the way and the coil packs are only about $100, its not worth my while to leave in the truck, considering the service life is probably shorter than the plug, and to cme back in a month when another goes. btw, why is it always that 7&8 are the first to go?
I don't know what to tell you, but they shouldn't take nearly that long. We got 1.8hr to do them at the dealer I was at. The right tools and it's cake. Swivel sockets are needed, and no need to touch the fuel rail whatsoever. It's usually cyl. 4 that goes first because they leak coolant on them from the heater hose above it. The back cylinders are also exposed to the most heat.
4)granted, im hard on vehicles(snow blades, salt hoppers etc), but the trend seems to be that while the new vehicle is lasting longer it takes much more work to get it there. i had an old 93 mazda b2600, it went 500000km requiring only 1 clutch and a head about every 80000km. sold it because the frame rusted out(d@mn box section chassis) but the guy fixed her and now shes got 650000km on orginal block, the 1980 gm is still going strong without any motor work yet.
Here at the dealers we do very little work to new stuff other than trim work.

im not going to dispute the cmfort of the new trucks, but if you do break down, you might as well start walking as opeing the hood...

dave

Again.

 

[Peacock]

Ugggghhhhh.....sorry Cisco, we're off topic again.:spam:

 

[Stihl 041S]

Mouhtainlake"some people are a joke"

Modern materials-ford dsl engine around 2003? Before nthey pulled it there were 77 recall issues, chevy and dodge had 8 between them in the same time period. Saws lasting?
Few folks heated with wood for years
then they pull out a 20 year old saw and if it runs, they say its been running for 25 yrs. See how long pro saws last

 

[ciscoguy01]

mmmmm

Modern materials-ford dsl engine around 2003? Before nthey pulled it there were 77 recall issues, chevy and dodge had 8 between them in the same time period. Saws lasting?
Few folks heated with wood for years
then they pull out a 20 year old saw and if it runs, they say its been running for 25 yrs. See how long pro saws last

That depends, that statement is a yes and no... You'd have to look at the saw itself... If the paint is all worn off it, it doesn't get worn off if its sitting in the case, then it's probably been used and abused. I have a stihl 041AV Farmboss. 1 of 3 I own. My little puke brother ran over it with the FRONT of his Ranger, yes pickup, when he was visiting from NC. He never said anything to me, I assume he was scared. It broke the screw on the air filter cover. I had to use a pair of lock pliars to get it out and thread a new screw in and kinda change the setup a bit for that. It also broke off the choke lever, which I custom made one. THATS IT. You run a ton on a new saw and see what happens... For 5 yrs that saw has been my #1 go to saw, I can guarantee you it's been run. It's also been full of oil in the gas tank and vice versa, lmao... Yes, the wife was very sorry... hehehehehehe With a newer saw it might have had a scored P/C from this, a newer saw wouldn't have made it past the truck incident w/out a ton of $$$$ and parts. Mine was a 10 min fix and back in the woodpile... Hard to fight that one for sure...

eh?