Porting Theory

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Brian13

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I have seen a lot of how to threads, with a little bit of theory here and there. But I dont think I have come across a thread dedicated to strictly theory. The hows and whys you would do it. And also definitions for porting specific terms. I am not looking for trade secrets per say, but if you guys have numbers that work and want to post feel free. I am more so looking for things like, what will happen when raise or lower the ports, why you would or would not. What makes more torque, and what makes higher rpms and how those effect the power band ect. For me when reading some of the port threads, aside from just widening the ports I get lost in some of the talk, and I think it would be nice to have a thread were people who want to try porting can read to find out how and why it works, and why somethings wont work, to give the new porter the ability to make an educated guess of what kind of results one can expect.

Thanks:cheers:
 
Tunners Handbook is likely one of the best reads on porting.

It is a bit dated and some stuff applies more to bike engines than saws but lots of good general info.

Gordon Jenning's 2 Stroke Tuners Handbook

Thanks, I have already started reading through it. There is a lot to go through.

I will read that one, I have read bits and pieces of it, and was thinking it was mostly how to. My original intention was a companion to that thread with more of the basic theory involved. Time to get to reading.
 
You'll like the Jennings book. I had to re-read several passages to thoroughly grasp it. I really appreciated the pipe part. I don't have the tools or skills to make one, but I "get it" thanks to that book.
 
I had to re-read several passages to thoroughly grasp it
Agree, this sort of stuff takes more than just one read to soak in and to me makes it worth while to buy the books.

"Two Stroke Performance Tuning" by G. Bell is another good read and is quite up to date. "High Performance Two Stroke" by Dixon is also decent and goes into simple box muffler engines some as well as piped 2 strokes. Blair's writings on 2 strokes are likely the most indepth out there, but not an easy read.

IMHO you really need to watch engine tuning info on the net, some of it is valid, some of it is BS or taken so far out of context it is worthless. Also many of the rules of thumb and porting numbers found on the net and in tuning books simply don't apply well to saws as they were developed with tuned pipe and longer stroke motors run under totally different conditions.
 
Here's my theory. Those engineers are paid a ton of dollars to figure out how to make a saw run well...consistently even thru the manufacturing variances and discontinuities indigenous to the manufacturing process involving sub contractors and all the things related to parts & sub assemblies manufactured at multiple locations and finally assembled to a reliable running saw! :msp_scared:To think just hacking without a significant amount of knowledge gained either through research or practical experience will make significant gains is mythology.:msp_unsure: For the amateur to re-engineer that machine expecting to achieve both better performance over the life of the saw and reliability gains is a statistical game of luck.....so we make it cool here to hack and grind, some rev higher, some just get louder, and a few actually achieve the goals set out by the grinder in charge!:msp_w00t:

So...first. If you want to play this game, whether its you or you gamble on some one else, make certain you won't be too hurt if that saw never does what you want..it has to be expendable.:wink2:

Second. All the guys who will take your money to grind your saw have ethics. Some more than others. Make certain if they make a mistake and ruin a part, there is some type of reimbursement so you are not paying for their R&D and or mistake. IE you take all the risk they get all the financial gains with no risk.:msp_angry: (Unless you want to get into an R&D arrangement with that person and willingly eyes open take that risk)

Third. All the guys who do this for dollars have customers as references..find those who most represent what you are and do. (honestly) and take their experiences into account. If you can't identify your self...go with the professional loggers who put food on the table with their saws. BUT if your a working pro, the pro loggers are the best reference point, if your a cookie cutting GTG regular...take a look at the racing results for hints to who can build the ultimate cookie cutter. If you don't see the builder prominent in either world (logging pro's or racers) you are taking yet a larger leap of faith!:msp_rolleyes:

Forth...If you want to do this yourself...its a LOT of fun, from a mechanical standpoint instant gratification at low cost when you get it right, and low cost / low risk when you get it wrong if its a saw not used for food on the table pursuits! :) (Verses Cars, Boats, Planes, Motorcycles, Quads, Snowmobiles etc...a CHEAP form of motorsport!)

Fifth. There are all kinds of threads with pictures showing the ways different folks do their port jobs..good place to get raw data and then compare to the theoretical data you find following the reading advice from the wise ones above. AND do the research as that will help wrap theory around what you see to help you build your own methodology on how to build a better mouse trap...for you.

Sixth. Better have a lot of room and a nice place to work because it can get addicting.

Seventh. To begin this game, pick a saw class that's financially accessible, has a source of parts still available, and is relatively easy to work on. For me its been the 60 thru 272 series of Husqvarna's..can ruin them and replace for very little money. Can have them down to the cases and back together in an hour or two. Lots of parts and even aftermarket parts to detail and finish the saws. Their maybe a Stihl counterpart, I just don't know what that would be.:confused:

That's my theory. I've wasted as much time and money as many..and plan to waste more!

(GTG's and race events are a great way to meet others, see how yours stack up and learn from your gains and mistakes!)
 
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IMHO you really need to watch engine tuning info on the net, some of it is valid, some of it is BS or taken so far out of context it is worthless. Also many of the rules of thumb and porting numbers found on the net and in tuning books simply don't apply well to saws as they were developed with tuned pipe and longer stroke motors run under totally different conditions.
Well said.

Thanks for the tip to Dixon's book, I will add it to my wish list.
 
Agree, this sort of stuff takes more than just one read to soak in and to me makes it worth while to buy the books.

"Two Stroke Performance Tuning" by G. Bell is another good read and is quite up to date. "High Performance Two Stroke" by Dixon is also decent and goes into simple box muffler engines some as well as piped 2 strokes. Blair's writings on 2 strokes are likely the most indepth out there, but not an easy read.

IMHO you really need to watch engine tuning info on the net, some of it is valid, some of it is BS or taken so far out of context it is worthless. Also many of the rules of thumb and porting numbers found on the net and in tuning books simply don't apply well to saws as they were developed with tuned pipe and longer stroke motors run under totally different conditions.

Just got "Two Stroke Performance Tuning" by G. Bell, courtesy of another member. Already started reading it. Lot of info to go over.

Here's my theory. Those engineers are paid a ton of dollars to figure out how to make a saw run well...consistently even thru the manufacturing variances and discontinuities indigenous to the manufacturing process involving sub contractors and all the things related to parts & sub assemblies manufactured at multiple locations and finally assembled to a reliable running saw! :msp_scared:To think just hacking without a significant amount of knowledge gained either through research or practical experience will make significant gains is mythology.:msp_unsure: For the amateur to re-engineer that machine expecting to achieve both better performance over the life of the saw and reliability gains is a statistical game of luck.....so we make it cool here to hack and grind, some rev higher, some just get louder, and a few actually achieve the goals set out by the grinder in charge!:msp_w00t:

So...first. If you want to play this game, whether its you or you gamble on some one else, make certain you won't be too hurt if that saw never does what you want..it has to be expendable.:wink2:

Second. All the guys who will take your money to grind your saw have ethics. Some more than others. Make certain if they make a mistake and ruin a part, there is some type of reimbursement so you are not paying for their R&D and or mistake. IE you take all the risk they get all the financial gains with no risk.:msp_angry: (Unless you want to get into an R&D arrangement with that person and willingly eyes open take that risk)

Third. All the guys who do this for dollars have customers as references..find those who most represent what you are and do. (honestly) and take their experiences into account. If you can't identify your self...go with the professional loggers who put food on the table with their saws. BUT if your a working pro, the pro loggers are the best reference point, if your a cookie cutting GTG regular...take a look at the racing results for hints to who can build the ultimate cookie cutter. If you don't see the builder prominent in either world (logging pro's or racers) you are taking yet a larger leap of faith!:msp_rolleyes:

Forth...If you want to do this yourself...its a LOT of fun, from a mechanical standpoint instant gratification at low cost when you get it right, and low cost / low risk when you get it wrong if its a saw not used for food on the table pursuits! :) (Verses Cars, Boats, Planes, Motorcycles, Quads, Snowmobiles etc...a CHEAP form of motorsport!)

Fifth. There are all kinds of threads with pictures showing the ways different folks do their port jobs..good place to get raw data and then compare to the theoretical data you find following the reading advice from the wise ones above. AND do the research as that will help wrap theory around what you see to help you build your own methodology on how to build a better mouse trap...for you.

Sixth. Better have a lot of room and a nice place to work because it can get addicting.

Seventh. To begin this game, pick a saw class that's financially accessible, has a source of parts still available, and is relatively easy to work on. For me its been the 60 thru 272 series of Husqvarna's..can ruin them and replace for very little money. Can have them down to the cases and back together in an hour or two. Lots of parts and even aftermarket parts to detail and finish the saws. Their maybe a Stihl counterpart, I just don't know what that would be.:confused:

That's my theory. I've wasted as much time and money as many..and plan to waste more!

(GTG's and race events are a great way to meet others, see how yours stack up and learn from your gains and mistakes!)

I fall into number four. I dont work with saws for a living, dont heat the house with them, this is just a hobby. I actually spend more time rebuilding than using, but its a lot cheaper than cars, motorcycles, or any other bigger engine. I have learned a lot of useful and practical info with this hobby, and looking to learn a little more. I can take a saw apart and put it back together, and even diagnose a lot of problems. But I dont really know all the ins and outs yet. Hoping to get a better grasp on what makes them work as well as how to make them work better.
 
Sixth. Better have a lot of room and a nice place to work because it can get addicting.

Seventh. To begin this game, pick a saw class that's financially accessible, has a source of parts still available, and...


Eigth. Start out simple and make one change at a time and test the saw. Beyond generally good or generally bad, as soon as two changes are made at the same time it is all but impossible to tell if both changes were good, one was good and one did nothing, one was bad and the other good or both bad. Whithout knowing which changes are good and which were bad it is very hard to learn much from the testing.

Nineth. Keep notes, I dislike this part myself, but have found ways to get around writing down hand notes. Take lots of pictures, make port maps and scan them in. Posting info helps too, I have serched my own old posts more than once and have downloaded many good info threads, never know some times people get banned or sites crash and the info is gone.

Tenth. Set up a good way to test things, we see many people cutting different kinds and sizes of wood each time, using all sorts of bar and chain combos. If these variables can't be nailed down realy the testing of performance amounts to little more that guessing.
 
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"Start out simple and make one change at a time and test the saw."

This is good advice. Too often you see people jump into tuning and doing multiple things and then not having any idea what worked or didn't work. It will also clue you in to what effect that mod has and what the change feels like, it will expand your database of knowledge.

Here's an important one for someone new to porting - 'bigger is not always better'. The Dremel can remove a lot of metal in a very short time, be conservative with your approach.

As been said, the success of a proper tuning job can become addictive. It has been referred to as 'Tim Allen's Disease'.
 
[snip]
and longer stroke motors run under totally different conditions.

It's something that I have to keep reminding myself that bike and kart engines are much longer stroke and in particularly much longer rod engines than saws for similar cc's, along with everything else.
 
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To OP,
Much good info/advice given here, I Have raced/tuned 2smokes since the mid 70's Motocross dirtbikes, Karts, jetski's, outboard drag boats Still active In DSRA and playing with saws,,,

Much of the theory for the other types of Moto's is the same with Karts being closest with the Piston ported Motors minus the pipes,,,

As weimdog stated this is probably the cheapest form of moto sport around,,,

It's something that I have to keep reminding myself that bike and kart engines are much longer stroke and in particularly much longer rod engines than saws for similar cc's, along with everything else.

Yes,, makes for an over square type Moto in some cases where the diameter of the bore is actually longer than the stroke

Good luck,,, with your new affliction,,, CAD is addictive!!!:hmm3grin2orange:
 
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I enjoy learning about the scientific side of it, that kind of stuff is interesting to me. As far as the porting goes, I want to port my 044/046 after I finish breaking it in. I know what I want I want to get out of the saw, just dont know how to go about doing it yet. I am thinking if I understand how everything works together I can have a better chance of getting what I want with less guessing LOL. Either way it will be fun, already have started reading and learning about the ports and how they effect the performance of the engine. Got a lot more to learn though LOL. In the end I will be happy if my first port job dosnt end in a useless top end LOL.
 

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