Probability of success transplanting large blue spruce?

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Lucy

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All,

I am considering having a number of blue spruce moved from one location to another on the same property. They are all ~25' tall and in good health. l am wondering what the probabilities of success and approximate cost might be?

Thank you.

[edit] Zone 6, sorry.
 
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I don't know what the cost would be for your area, but the only way I'd consider moving these would be with a very large tree spade.
 
Yes indeed. To be clear, this is not even remotely being considered as homeowner D.I.Y., it would be contracted out professionally as an insurance claim. Just trying to determine if 1.) it is feasible based on survivability percentages (I've read here that large native spruce do not transplant as well as large nursery stock spruce) and 2.) how the cost of such transplants compares to replacing, say, a single deciduous w/ 16" trunk that has to be trucked in. Thanks.
 
Nursery stock would have higher survivability since root cutting would be minimized. I don't know how hard it may be to find stock of this size though. In my area, finding anything much over 8" is difficult.
 
I should have a couple proposals with area specific pricing in a day or two. Curious, what's the largest trunk dia. evergreen or deciduous transplant the pros here have successfully accomplished? Native or nursery?
 
My tree service used to do a lot of landscaping and I had a good contact with a local garden center which also had a tree farm. My crew and I many times went directly to the farm to dig and B&B good size trees. One day we dug and transplanted a pin oak that was 8" DBH and was a planted height of 18'. We also dug and transplanted several r. maples that were in the 6"-8" DBH range. I once transplanted a large sugar maple for a client in which me moved the tree appx. 25' to allow for more room. It was at the root flare a tad of 12" dia. and around 9" DBH. This tree had a nice crown spread already and didn't even wilt, even though it was pushing buds at the time we moved it. I never moved evergreens over 4"-6".
 
Blueatlascedar - thank you, your input is helpful for setting expectations and better understanding the practical limitations I am dealing with.

I have received preliminary assessments, recommendations and estimates to re-establish a living screen to replace trees and shrubs removed from my property without authorization. Certain costs remain a question mark, ie. those considered unidentifiable until further site work is complete, actual cost of nursery stock, transport freight, permits etc. at time of repairs. Even before these are factored in, restoration costs are 45x the monetary compensation offered by the (admittedly) negligent party's insurance company. -sigh- I guess you have to start somewhere, but clearly we are of opposite mindsets for now. In the interest of compromise, I felt transplanting mature trees from on site may be a less costly option to offer the insurance company. However, due to the hillside slope and other considerations, maybe not the best option in this instance after all.

Unfortunately, no matter what course of action we pursue it will take many, many years to restore the damage done in only a few hours by an incompetent tree service. Shame on any homeowner trying to save what probably amounts to less than your policy deductible by hiring anyone less than a truly qualified and properly insured professional. The alternative may just be losing a far bigger chunk of your estate to your neighbor. On the bright side, you'll learn plenty about illegal timber trespass statutes (harsh!), related case law (yep, you're screwed!), liability of uninsured tree services (whadda mean, I'm responsible for that fool's actions?) and the expensive nature of proper restorative planting requirements (if you think a 3" trunk is expensive, care to venture a guess on 16" DBH transplants... :dizzy:).

I'm sure I'll have more questions for the pros here, thanks in advance.
 
Sorry to hear of your misfortune. Don't try to save expense now for insurance co., just get prices on what a Landscaper, Nursery, would charge for installation of New large caliper trees. If you choose to move your own, after settlement, so be it.

Large spruce 25', no problem with proper tree spade. Shoot for the largest spade in or around your zip code, for the most roots per size ball.

Tree spades can be found in the 80", 90" & 100".

Start with Old Nurseries with Large Trees.
They can offer a few names of who to contact once you select the size of trees.

Or hand dug balls, flat beds, large end loaders, prices will be high, but not your problem....

Nurseries could bend over backwards for you. Right now things are slow in the industry and you might find good prices on new material.

Depending on where you live, you might want to wait on moving Evergreens this late in the year. Unless you water well, and cable/anchor the new transplants.

All the other trees have gone to sleep up here, and are good to move/plant.

Now is a good time to plant, untill the frost sets in....

No pro, but take your time and use experts for your damage assesments. Have heard of weed trees in fence rows costing hundreds of thousands to be compensated for.....Native.
 
Definately check with a local nursery, I would shoot for one that mainly caters to the commericial landscape company instead of diy'ers.
Many times they will have small areas of larger trees, either kept for big $$$ clients or they just haven't cut them down and replanted yet.
With the slow economy, commericial nurserys are hurting, you might get a deal.

Additionally, call a company with a big azz tree spade, they often get trees from private landowners that had good intentions by planting a field to trees and now need or want them cleared out.

Ed
 
brnchbrkr and Ed*L - thank you both for posting some very interesting and constructive suggestions, as well as sound advice.

We have researched the reputations and capabilities of the area Arborists and regional tree service experts, and are comfortable with the quality of service and information received to date. This includes paid appraisals by different individuals/firms and even extends to any 'free' initial assessments offered. I must say, after being victimized by a hack tree service, we were very pleasantly surprised and duly impressed at the professionalism and thoroughness exhibited by the certified arborists in our area. They are very clearly 'good guys' upholding the high standards professionals everywhere work so hard to achieve and maintain. It is always refreshing to work with top professionals regardless of industry, and we tip our hats to these guys.

So, yes, we are indeed being conscientious and careful to fully document and value the loss using only I.S.A. Certified and Consulting Arborists. We have also learned there are two acceptable damage assessment valuation methods appropriate in most residential illegal timber trespass and removal claims: a real estate market value approach and a cost approach. The cost approach appears to be further divided most commonly into three methods: depreciated replacement cost (DRC), trunk formula method (TFM) and cost of cure (CoC). Our most recent evaluation was to done to provide a feasibility study and initial cost assessment to restore with large caliper trees. We now have secured professional appraisals for all three cost approach and anyone who doubts trees have value would be amazed at the costs and expenses contained therein.

As I understand, the real estate market approach (MV) does not use a single formula or published guide. Therefore, it is not typically used as a stand-alone appraisal method, but often has merit when applied as a check against reasonability of one or more cost approach methods. For multiple reasons, suffice to say we believe a MV approach appraisal will be extremely helpful in our particular circumstance and are pursuing that as well

Another point of interest... while the subjective nature of site, placement, contribution and location %'s inherent in residential and shade tree appraisals almost assuredly guaranty as many damage appraisal totals as qualified arborists, one thing is irrefutable: there is no question the damage and resulting loss of privacy has negatively impacted our property value AND the trees removed now provide a new, unobstructed and previously unobtainable hilltop vista to the cityscape and horizon beyond for the neighbor. His gain will almost certainly be in excess of whatever appraisal method we ultimately are forced to accept if large caliper trees can not be transplanted successfully on the hillside. Whether that has any actual legal value in our complaint is uncertain, but the fact that his property value gain exceeds our loss will certainly will catch the ear of jurists if this goes to litigation.

Again, being thrust into this regrettable but completely preventable nightmare scenario has taken it's toll both financially and emotionally over the past several months, and who knows how long it will continue. We appreciate your experience, feedback and suggestions helping us cope with this.
 
a few others are more qualified to comment on your situation. Will see if they can be steered your way.
 
a few others are more qualified to comment on your situation. Will see if they can be steered your way.

That would be terrific and I do hope they join the conversation. Perhaps I should emphasize we came here seeking plant and tree guidance specific to our restoration project, NOT legal advice. I expect ArboristSite members have experience in a wide variety of timber trespass related matters, but we recognize legal issues must be thoroughly evaluated and advice made by our local counsel due to state law. Of course, getting insurance companies to acknowledge more than basic stumpage value appears to be a challenge so it would be less than honest to say I am not interested hearing how stories similar to ours ended. Please do feel free to post illegal timber trespass experiences here as there may be some valuable takeaway if shared, in no way will it be construed as legal advice on our end. In any event, mad as we are, we still believe in treating our neighbor as we would like to be treated ourselves and that it is generally in everyone's interest to keep the adversarial aspect to a minimum and attempt to solve problems through creative alternatives to litigation if at all possible. Thanks!
 
We now have secured professional appraisals for all three cost approach and anyone who doubts trees have value would be amazed at the costs and expenses contained therein.
Yes a thorough report takes time and money.
As I understand, the real estate market approach (MV) does not use a single formula or published guide. Therefore, it is not typically used as a stand-alone appraisal method,
Yes MV is vastly overrated.

See attached for one case that used Cost of Cure, which fits timber trespass better than TFM (which is a DRC) imo. The below is another sample outline from another case. If you are happy with your help so far it's hard to see what you can find here; very few consultants post here.

There are national companies--senna, davey etc.-- that move big trees and i suggest you contact them for an apples-to-apples replacement cost, which is often more defensible than DRC.

Planting very fast trees like hybrid poplars may also fit your case.

Dec 31 1999 I was asked by Joseph Blough to go to his address. He said that a timber company damaged trees and landscape along his northern border, so he wanted an appraisal of the loss of security, buffering, wildlife and other benefits to his family. I agreed to inspect the site, assess the damages, and write a report documenting his loss. My rate of a million megabucks a minute for the site visit was paid that day. The research, analysis and reporting should take umpteen hours, based on present knowledge.

My assignment does not include a tree-by-tree valuation, a survey of the death and disturbance of wildlife, or an appraisal of real estate or other market value. My assignment is to calculate the cost to cure the loss by repairing the damages as much as is reasonably possible to:

1. Remove all debris from the logging operation with minimal disturbance to the surviving plants.
2. At the same time, reduce the risk of any more whole trees or tree branches falling and restore the pre-casualty safety level. This includes pruning branches, cleaning wounds, repairing roots, and restoring soil structure.
3. Replace some of the casualty trees where there is room for them to grow and restore the contributions of the original plants.
4. Maintain the replacement trees until they are established, to restore the pre-casualty contributions. The purpose and use of my report is to help arrive at fair compensation.

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
1999, logging machinery entered the property at his land. The cost to cure the damage to the trees earth and landscape and restore the previous level of benefits is $ One Jillion .00.

APPRAISAL: COST OF CURE METHOD
 
Yes a thorough report takes time and money. Yes MV is vastly overrated.

See attached for one case that used Cost of Cure, which fits timber trespass better than TFM (which is a DRC) imo. The below is another sample outline from another case. If you are happy with your help so far it's hard to see what you can find here; very few consultants post here.

There are national companies--senna, davey etc.-- that move big trees and i suggest you contact them for an apples-to-apples replacement cost, which is often more defensible than DRC.

Planting very fast trees like hybrid poplars may also fit your case.
Hi treeseer - help me understand, please. Obviously, insurance companies needed competent tree appraisers to help quantify damages for property loss, and the arboricultural industry responded with published guides that offer clear, concise figures for baseline values. To my uneducated eyes it does seem as if the R.E. industry professionals have a similar 'guide' for establishing clear, concise baseline values... the Sold listings!

Never the less, it is true both MV and Cost approach valuation methods contain a measure of subjectivity whereby each appraiser then adds value above and beyond the baseline. And, if we all agree there is a demonstrable link between the relationship of trees, shrubs, plants and landscape etc. to real estate and market value, rightly so. That leaves me thinking the primary reason why MV approach is considered either a less inappropriate or overrated tool for insurance appraisal than a cost approach is that it generally tends to incorporate a higher percentage of subjective measure into the appraisal formula. Which, I presume, results in a greater number of peak-to-trough 'outliers' from the mean appraisal but, perhaps most notably, higher outliers above the mean. At least from that viewpoint, it's easy to understand why insurance co.'s might dismiss MV approach appraisals as inappropriate.

That may or may not be true, I don't know, but here's my personal experience and observations. Using as an actual example, one tree removed from our property that was appraised using TFM by two well qualified and experienced Registered Consulting Arborists, has a 30% disparity in valuation. If the TFM actually provided the same clear, concise baseline value from which each began their respective valuations, it is apparent that the subjective opinions of each with regard to the had great impact. Is that simple opinion or excessive variation, or any less confusing than a R.E. appraisal that opines the removal of the same tree results in $150k market value loss to a $500k property?

Quite honestly, in my [admittedly cynical] opinion, any approach that includes a subjective component in a formula can be called baloney and only serves to keep the lawyers in business. The only constant in either approach for residential tree and plant appraisal that I see, is the 'appropriate and relevant' type of value sought is a function of the intended use of the appraisal. I probably don't need to tell you which appraisal valuation came from my, or the insurance co.'s, consulting arborist. It will be interesting to see how each defend their valuations in court if necessary, particularly after reading the Expert Witness paper (a great read, thank you).

Market value arguments aside, I find it frustrating when TFM for very large, but available, trees is nowhere near the actual cost to acquire and transplant a comparable caliper and specie tree. Particularly in those instances where CoC restoration of smaller plantings can not possibly address a loss of privacy in timely fashion. Due to the angle and height of the hillside involved in our circumstance, 3" nursery stock will do -zero- to restore the screening privacy lost by the removal of 16" DBH specimens. Even fast growing species (clump form shadblow is one recommendation) will take many, many years before they would even approach the point of being tall and canopy wide enough to effectively restore the privacy and noise screening lost by what was removed. The entire hillside was essentially clearcut to the ground.

That is why our last assessment DID include an apples-to-apples replacement cost, as well as the preliminary cost to establish an appropriate planting site on the hillside. That of course, requires the ground to be leveled and support walls built as nursery and most available field stock are not adapted to a steep slope. Lawn repair and possibly driveway repair will be required because a crane is necessary since building a temporary access roadway on such a steep slope will require destruction of even more landscape. Oh, did I mention, the hillside is designated a Steep Slope Environmental Protection Overlay District? Protected, as in NO CUTTING! Steep Slope EPOD, as in serious EROSION ISSUES! You can see why this has the potential to be one big costly mess and has become a huge emotional distraction to our lives. I should state very clearly, we don't care about playing negotiating games to secure a big monetary settlement to put in our pockets. The large trees have significantly more value in our lives for their utility and aesthetic value -this property took us years of searching and is arguably unique enough to the area to have previously demanded a premium for it's location, size, mature native trees, plantings and privacy- and we simply want the large caliper trees replaced if physically possible. How big is too big, or how many site hardships to overcome are too many before it becomes physically impossible, or simpy unreasonable?

Sorry to go on, thanks for your comments. I've found each and every post so far contained useful information or insight. It means a lot when you're on a crash course and trying to keep an open mind.
 
If you haven't done so already, go to Google Maps or Bing and get satellite image of your property. These can be up to 18 months old for us civilians.

Save as many different close up and far away pics as possible, before they dissapear.

Then show us a few pics of what your tree line looks like now vs an older satellite pic. We all enjoy looking at tree pictures. Before and after shots.
 
I skimmed the thread and have not seen a location. Have what have the arborists said about tree law in your area? Some places are better then others.

You say that the cut over area is restricted? Have the "authorities" had anything to say about this yet?
 
John - the local code enforcement officials are aware and have requested copies of the arborist reports. State Law = New York Real Property Actions and Proceedings Law Section 861:
§ 861. Action for cutting, removing, injuring or destroying trees or timber, and damaging lands thereon.

1. If any person, without the consent of the owner thereof, cuts, removes, injures or destroys, or causes to be cut, removed, injured or destroyed, any underwood, tree or timber on the land of another or on the common or other land of a city, village, town or county, or damages the land in the course thereof, an action may be maintained against such person for treble the stumpage value of the tree or timber or two hundred fifty dollars per tree, or both and for any permanent and substantial damage caused to the land or the improvements thereon as a result of such violation. Such reparations shall be of such kind, nature and extent as will reasonably restore the lands affected by the violation to their condition immediately before the violation and may be made by physical restoration of such lands and/or by the assessment of monetary payment to make such restoration.

2. In any action brought pursuant to subdivision one of this section, if the defendant establishes by clear and convincing evidence, that when the defendant committed the violation, he or she had cause to believe the land was his or her own, or that he or she had an easement or right of way across such land which permitted such action, or he or she had a legal right to harvest such land, then he or she shall be liable for the stumpage value or two hundred fifty dollars per tree, or both and reasonable costs associated with maintaining an action pursuant to this section. In such case, the defendant shall also be liable for any permanent and substantial damage caused to the land or the improvements thereon as a result of such violation. Such reparations shall be of such kind, nature and extent as will reasonably restore the lands affected by the violation to their condition immediately before the violation and may be made by physical restoration of such lands and/or by the assessment of monetary payment to make such restoration.

3. For the purposes of this section "stumpage value" shall mean the current fair market value of a tree as it stands prior to the time of sale, cutting, or removal. Stumpage value shall be determined by one or more of the following methods: the sale price of the tree in an arm's-length sale, a review of solicited bids, the stumpage price report prepared by the department of environmental conservation, comparison with like sales on trees on state or private lands, or other appropriate means to assure that a fair market value is established within an acceptable range based on the appropriate geographic area.
 
Oh, did I mention, the hillside is designated a Steep Slope Environmental Protection Overlay District?

I was referring to this statement you made, so it should be covered under a different section of law, or both.

A few more thoughts as I write

Also I understand that NY's tree law is progressing faster then other states. Under that statute you may be entitled to no more the triple firewood value. I commend you for perusing it, because we do need more precedent.

I have heard that it is better to not use the above types of statues at all, but to go us malicious trespass laws. The intent of the trespass was not to harvest timber, but to improve the neighbors property value. The damage was done to real property, a comparison must be made to other types of unlawful taking. What if the neighbor had decided that a church steeple was in is line of site and burned down a church? The argument is that it is just a tree, and the viewpoint must be shifted to that it is your property, and the other parties took that from you.

Also many communities are seeing woodlots in a light of communal stewardship. This selfish and unwarranted act may have altered the neighborhood for several generations.

A comment on installing large material; as you have seen the cost per unit is very high, and very impractical. Also university studies have shown that smaller caliper trees will establish themselves vaster and recover form the trauma of harvest. Large tree installation is for immediate grattification, small trees will have a much better long term result.

I also like Guy's suggestion for hybrid poplars, which grow very fast and will infringe upon the neighbors line of site in a decade or so. Though a good mix appropriate to the habitat is what the majority of the material should be.
 
John - in NY, trespassers can be held liable for civil damages even if no criminal action has been taken. "Nominal" damages are available if no property damage has been done. Actual damages are recoverable if the trespasser has damaged your property. Any damage to timber or trees is recoverable at three times (treble) the value of the trees cut (RPAPL §861). Timber theft in NYS does not automatically or solely pay stumpage or a flat $250 regardless of circumstance. I believe it is one of the more progressive when it come to differentiating timber theft from forestry woodland and urban residential woodlots and does recognize utility and aesthetic contribution to residential woodlots and property value. There may also be some precedent property owners can recover emotional distress damages under the timber trespass statute without having to elect the remedy specifically. All options are being investigated, the D.E.C. law enforcement and county soil and conservation departments are also involved.
 
Any damage to timber or trees is recoverable at three times (treble) the value of the trees cut (RPAPL §861). Timber theft in NYS does not automatically or solely pay stumpage or a flat $250 regardless of circumstance. I believe it is one of the more progressive when it come to differentiating timber theft from forestry woodland and urban residential woodlots and does recognize utility and aesthetic contribution to residential woodlots and property value.
Lucy, if this is your operative understanding, I recommend that you get an attorney who can interpret statutes accurately.

Here is NC's by comparison.

JPS, yes prosecuting for trespass has yielded more reasonable settlements than going after tree value, esp. given that "stumpage" wording.

Does "lands" include trees in NY, or just dirt?

NC STATUTE PLANT LOSS

§ 1-539.1. Damages for unlawful cutting, removal or burning of timber; misrepresentation of property lines.
(a) Any person, firm or corporation not being the bona fide owner thereof or agent of the owner who shall without the consent and permission of the bona fide owner enter upon the land of another and injure, cut or remove any valuable wood, timber, shrub or tree therefrom, shall be liable to the owner of said land for double the value of such wood, timber, shrubs or trees so injured, cut or removed.
(b) If any person, firm or corporation shall willfully and intentionally set on fire, or cause to be set on fire, in any manner whatever, any valuable wood, timber or trees on the lands of another, such person, firm or corporation shall be liable to the owner of said lands for double the value of such wood, timber or trees damaged or destroyed thereby.
(c) Any person, firm or corporation cutting timber under contract and incurring damages as provided in subsection (a) of this section as a result of a misrepresentation of property lines by the party letting the contract shall be entitled to reimbursement from the party letting the contract for damages incurred. (1945, c. 837; 1955, c. 594; 1971, c. 119; 1977, c. 859.)
When timber is unlawfully cut, the owner may elect to recover either (1) the
difference between the market value of the land before and after the cutting, or (2) the
market value of the timber at the time and place of its severance plus incidental
damages caused in removal. Andrews v. Bruton, 242 N.C. 93, 86 S.E.2d 786 (1955);
________________________________________
Page 41
XV-36
Williams v. Elm City Lumber Co., 154 N.C. 306, 70 S.E. 631 (1911). A related
statutory provision, N.C.G.S. § 1-539.1(a), provides that a trespasser who "injure,
cut or remove any valuable wood, timber, shrub or tree . . . shall be liable to the
owner" for double its value. N.C.G.S. § 1-539.1(a) (1999); Perry-Griffin Found. v.
Proctor, 107 N.C. App. 528, 421 S.E.2d 186 (1992), review improvidently allowed,
333 N.C. 573, 429 S.E.2d 176 (1993) (per curiam). Double damages are mandatory,
not discretionary. Id. To recover under this section, the plaintiff must establish
ownership of the land. Hefner v. Stafford, 64 N.C. App. 707, 308 S.E.2d 93 (1983).
From Hicks thesis, Penn State University
NORTH CAROLINA
North Carolina has a typical timber trespass statute that awards one level of
damages for timber theft or arson. N.C. GEN. STAT. § 1-539 awards double
damages for a timber trespass that occurs "without the consent and permission of
the bona fide owner" or an act of arson if a defendant "willfully and intentionally
set on fire, or cause to be set on fire" timber on the land of another. When timber
trespass results from improperly marked or located property lines, N.C. GEN.
STAT. § 1-539 entitles "any firm or corporation, acting under contract, to
reimbursement from the party letting the contract." Additionally, N.C. GEN.
STAT. § 14-128 considers anyone committing a "willful" timber trespass guilty of a
Class 1 misdemeanor,
 
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