Probability of success transplanting large blue spruce?

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All - thank you for the helpful discussions to date. Since we really didn't know what questions to ask, posting your thoughts and comments has provided plenty of actionable info for our restoration efforts.

Speaking of restoration efforts, here's a quick update: the town officially notified the neighbor for violation of Steep Slope EPOD provisions citing, in part, removal of several trees. The notice demanded no further removal of any trees or vegetation, and also included advisement that restoration of the area back to it's [pre] existing condition will be required. Immediate slope stabilization efforts are required (conservation mix seeding and mulching) during the next quick snowmelt, with further consideration by the Planning and Conservation Boards, and town consul regarding remediation required for the large trees and vegetation removed. I wonder if the town might find it in their interest to bring action against the homeowner in an attempt to have his insurance co. foot the bill for some of the more costly EPOD restoration.

As to our legal efforts, I've been hesitant to offer much in the way of substantive detail pending a filing but here's a little more for those interested... Suffice to say John's comments have been most accurate when bringing a civil action in NY, and one must be very careful so as not to limit his available remedies. It is not unusual to bring action under RPAPL §861 and recover treble damages based on restoration or cost of cure provided, however, that 1.) to be liable for a trespass, a defendant must intend the intrusion, and 2.) in order to avoid treble damages, defendants had the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that, when they removed the trees from plaintiffs' property, they "had cause to believe the land was [their] own".

It is undisputed that the neighbor intentionally directed removal of trees and vegetation from our property to improve his view. He admits liability for some but not all trees and vegetation removed, disclaiming any property damage resulting from the tree service removing the debris through our property. Specifically, in a letter received from the Claim Representative, "As I advised you, our insured is not negligent, therefore not responsible, for any damages caused by the tree service's removal of tree debris over or through your land. Our insured did not direct nor control the removal of the debris. Any claim you have for these additional damages would have to be made against the tree service."

We disagree and hold the neighbor 100% liable for all damage to the property. With respect to liability under RPAPL §861, one can be held liable for the actions of an an independent contractor if "they directed the trespass or such trespass was necessary to complete the contract". While it is true, as contended by the neighbor, that a party who retains an independent contractor has no liability for the negligent acts of such contractor (see, e.g., Rosenberg v Equitable Life Assur. Socy. of U.S., 79 NY2d 663, 668), the record here amply justifies a finding that the neighbor was negligent in the manner in which they instructed the contractor to perform the work which, in turn, constitutes a well-recognized exception to the rule against the imposition of liability for the acts of an independent contractor (see, Kleeman v Rheingold, 81 NY2d 270, 274).

That is true because the neighbor freely admitted walking the contractor to the site and personally pointing out the specific large trees he wanted removed, including trees which ended up being on our side of the line. The record will reveal that the neighbor provides no evidence that he had probable cause to believe that it owned the property in question. Instead, he freely admits not knowing where the common lot line was, or securing a survey prior to identifying trees for removal to the contractor. Whether the tree service removed debris through our property without his permission is immaterial to law, he is negligent and liable in our view.

Interestingly enough, RPAPL §861 does not require that a trespass occur in order to impose liability (see Crosby v RAM Forest Prods., 244 AD2d 1007). Never the less, I believe any jury could rationally conclude that the tree service as an independent contractor, intentionally trespassed on our property at the negligent direction of the neighbor. Of course, the tree service contractor still may be held responsible in subrogation to the homeowner's insurer, but that's not our problem. If the contractor was in fact uninsured as professed, a simple bankruptcy filing the day before trial would cause any civil action against him to be severed and the insurance co. would be S.O.L. In any event, my understanding is that subrogation and made-whole doctrine requires the insured claimant be made whole for its damages, which may well come in handy for the neighbor but not us.

-sigh- all we ever wanted to know about tree law and then some...
 
My experience with transplanting spruce has been with smaller ones. Never contracted, just experimented to see if some had enough roots to bring on over to my place.

Never got far into it with any. Looks like it must be one of the worst species to transplant. There's something about the root system that makes for a horrible rootball.

I'd never invest in a blue spruce for transplant. If I dished out that kind of money, it would just be for the biggest nursery grown specimen I could buy with the same money, or something else.
 
Over 10 years ago I was involved in an eminent domain loss of property. I used some of the damage settlement to move some trees to improve the landscape buffer. I contracted a very large tree spade to move some trees. One 10" oak tree was dead within a year. One 5"-6" ash is still alive, but just never really seems like it's healthy. Three blue spruces which were probably 12'-15' tall are healthy and never acted like they were harmed by the move. I'm in northern Indiana (zone 5?).
You might consider some form of drip irrigation in the settlment if possible. It would increase chances of survival plus speed the growth of any transplants.
Good luck whatever happens.
 
Although I'm retired and the fear of this happening to me is a moot point. I'm very interested in the out come. I'm 100% on your side to have your property restored. I believe you said you wanted to remain on an amiable relationship with your neighbor, so let me play devils advocate here.

If I came to your house and was asked for an estimate to remove all the trees at the end of your lot, to make available to you, a great view of the mountain, lake, valley, whatever. I might agree it would be a beautifull view and give you said estimate. If there were a fence line, hedge row, etc delineating properties, I would obviously ask if you were sure we weren't encroaching on your neighbors property. I have never asked for someone to produce a copy of their land plot to verify we were on their property.

Are we sure your neighbor didn't flat out misslead a "fly by night" operator knowing once the damage was done they could put the blame on him?

I understand that from your position your stuck in a legal battle, and your property will probably never be the same. The only reason I bring this up is because, here in Maryland, there are some pretty stringent rules on our water ways and Bay areas and people do all kind of underhanded things to get their beautiful veiws. It's not uncommon for people to cut first and ask questions later. If it winds up in court and they have to pay, or get their insurance to pay, still got their way, Joe.
 
Thanks for sharing the spruce-transplanting experience! Lucy will be glad to hear that. Sorry about the oak; I'm sure you were told it was a longshot.

I have never asked for someone to produce a copy of their land plot to verify we were on their property.
And you never looked for survey markers either? Then you are darn lucky you never got busted for trespass or worse. I always look for survey markers, and use a metal detector to find eip's. Client's word is worth zero on this, whether confused or intentional, makes no dif.
Are we sure your neighbor didn't flat out misslead a "fly by night" operator knowing once the damage was done they could put the blame on him?

Maybe so, but so what? Fly by day or fly by night, know where you are or you're not flying right.

Burma Shave
 
And you never looked for survey markers either? Then you are darn lucky you never got busted for trespass or worse. I always look for survey markers, and use a metal detector to find eip's. Client's word is worth zero on this, whether confused or intentional, makes no dif.

:clap::clap::clap:
 
I contracted a very large tree spade to move some trees. One 10" oak tree was dead within a year.

Not surprising there, by Nurseryman's Standards you would need a minimum 100 inch spade with the 10:1 ratio. Since oak invest so much more into their roots, I recommend at least 12:1 or greater when moving them. All oak seem to be very root "sensitive".
 
Three blue spruces which were probably 12'-15' tall are healthy and never acted like they were harmed by the move. I'm in northern Indiana (zone 5?).
Thank you, that is encouraging particularly in light of M.D.Vaden's experience. The large tree transplant co. here was very cautious about transplanting our existing large blue spruce due to blue spruce "tending to have very irregular root balls", ie. the majority of roots may well all be off to one side which is very hard to pre-determine, and there really is no way to tell with certainty that you will not destroy a large % of roots with the spade until you dig. Nursery grown stock with a managed v. natural root ball was strongly recommended for that reason as well as the steep slope. The thought of trying and losing our existing large blue spruce is not at all appealing, and the probability of success in our situation is questionable enough, that we have dismissed this idea. Since we do love the look of b.s. and they seem to grow healthy and hardy in our area, we will still likely try to incorporate nursery stock in our ultimate restoration plan so the size reference is helpful.
 
Are we sure your neighbor didn't flat out misslead a "fly by night" operator knowing once the damage was done they could put the blame on him? ... It's not uncommon for people to cut first and ask questions later. If it winds up in court and they have to pay, or get their insurance to pay, still got their way, Joe.
Yes, when you are speaking about otherwise responsible adults, the thought certainly crosses your mind. Cough up a $500 deductible = let the insurance co. litigate and pay any damages. So what if your policy gets canceled, an acceptable 'cost of doing business' so to speak. Unless the ins. co. can prove you acted fraudulently and deliberately which is next to impossible you get your view for cheap. Tempting to some I am sure, but our neighbors who knows? Doesn't really matter, the result is the same for us... forced to litigate... and the hope to remain amicable fading f-a-s-t. I doubt they like looking at all the new bright yellow Posted signs or appreciate the legal service at their place of employment by the Sheriff. Happy New Year, eh?
 
Treeseer, you may be right about being lucky. Virtually all of our work was in the Wash DC metro area. Property lines in manacured lawns are pretty well delineated. But, I am way more trusting than my Dad was. He didn't trust any one and thought every one was trying to sneak some thing over.

The likelyhood of some thing like this happening to my Dad would be pretty remote. As for me, I might get sucked into it. If the customer said their property included the trees being taken down, I would be inclined to believe them. Yes, I would ask where the pegs are. But, if it didn't look like we were encroaching on the neighbor, I would be inclined to believe them. The one thing that would probably save me is I always tried to contact all bordering neighbors to warn them we were working in the yard next door and to expect the noise and men in the yard. People do say I'm too good natured and trusting. Maybe my luck held out just long enough, I'm retired at 53 and sleep well at night, Joe.
 
Treeseer, you may be right about being lucky. Virtually all of our work was in the Wash DC metro area. Property lines in manacured lawns are pretty well delineated. But, I am way more trusting than my Dad was. He didn't trust any one and thought every one was trying to sneak some thing over.

The likelyhood of some thing like this happening to my Dad would be pretty remote. As for me, I might get sucked into it. If the customer said their property included the trees being taken down, I would be inclined to believe them. Yes, I would ask where the pegs are. But, if it didn't look like we were encroaching on the neighbor, I would be inclined to believe them. The one thing that would probably save me is I always tried to contact all bordering neighbors to warn them we were working in the yard next door and to expect the noise and men in the yard. People do say I'm too good natured and trusting. Maybe my luck held out just long enough, I'm retired at 53 and sleep well at night, Joe.

Ive found having both(or more) property owners meet with me and walk through the sight is the best thing to do. Although, I have had a couple turn into near boxing matches lol.

I was discussing a tree on the line with two neighbors once. One was an older lady(well, maybe not so much a lady!) who was a bit angry with her neighbor. I started to explain our local laws regarding the situation, when the old lady pipes up "Damn the law!". To which I was completely speechless and Im fairly sure my mouth was agape lol. I mean what in the world do you say to that lol.
 
"tending to have very irregular root balls", ie. the majority of roots may well all be off to one side which is very hard to pre-determine, and there really is no way to tell with certainty that you will not destroy a large % of roots with the spade until you dig. Nursery grown stock with a managed v. natural root ball was strongly recommended for that reason as well as the steep slope. The thought of trying and losing our existing large blue spruce is not at all appealing, and the probability of success in our situation is questionable enough, that we have dismissed this idea. Since we do love the look of b.s. and they seem to grow healthy and hardy in our area, we will still likely try to incorporate nursery stock in our ultimate restoration plan so the size reference is helpful.

An compressed air tool works well for this, though I ma not sure I understand what the company means. All healthy trees grow pretty much radially and symmetrically. The limiting factors are free O2 in the soil, water and nutrients (yes, i disagree with the Shigo definition, it is standard in plant science). It might be that tat company sees a lot of poorly lined out mechanically planted trees, where the roots were dragged by the planting machine. I would not trust their stock. We have a few companies like that in the metro MKE area, their business model is selling bulk orders of fast growing trees. They have no scientific background. I had one where I asked for a hort man and they sent out a former Used Car Salesman. He actually said he'd been "Wheeling an dealing in threes for 3 years now!" Big confidence builder.
 
In my experience 90% of nurseries are junk, when it comes to trees. I recommend having an arborist pick your trees, to everyone.
 
To my knowledge, the transplant service [insert large national co. name here] does not own/run a local nursery. If I understood correctly, they actually contacted multiple large stock nurseries for the various quotes. I believe the concern regarding root ball symmetry of the existing spruces was primarily due to their growing on a slope location. I got the impression this caused roots to develop differently as compared to a flat location. Or, maybe it was because they are on manicured lawn but very close to a dense, natural wooded area (which might absorb more moisture, ergo the roots go primarily in the other, downhill direction?), perhaps a combination of the two, I really don't know for certain. In any event, this was a district manager and I.S.A. Certified Arborist who seems to be well educated on this stuff. I do like the idea that he (or the Registered Consulting Arborist who provided the initial damage evaluation and recommendations) physically select the nursery replacements when the time comes. I suspect the ins. co. doesn't get that involved and, clearly, I am not qualified.
 
Asymmetry of roots is common on slopes yes and also in windy spots roots will be longer toward the wind. Never totally symmetrical and yes air tool is nice for finding roots but I imagine a hard rake or spade might work too.

53 and retired--shut up with that stuff, willya sonny? :cry:
 
Asymmetry of roots is common on slopes yes and also in windy spots roots will be longer toward the wind. Never totally symmetrical and yes air tool is nice for finding roots but I imagine a hard rake or spade might work too.

53 and retired--shut up with that stuff, willya sonny? :cry:

That might have been just a wee little bit missleading. I'm not quite jetting off to the Islands yet. I have 2 kids in school, so I do still work. I am retired from tree work and I'm at a point where if I really wanted to I can say that's enough. Now, my cousin just retired from tree work, and at this very moment he is jetting off to the Islands, Joe.
 
moving large spruce

Saving blue spruce wouldn't be my pick, but if you want to a simple formula to pick a tree spade is this. For every inch in diameter you need 10 inches of tree spade. So if the tree is 8 inches in diameter then you need atleast a 80" tree spade. If the mover gives you a warranty for a year it's not worth much. The trees will go into some transplant shock and slow down in growth for a number of years until the roots lost in the move are replaced. The movers experience and after care by YOU might limit the amount of shock the tree has..
 
Never totally symmetrical and yes air tool is nice for finding roots but I imagine a hard rake or spade might work too.

Nothing is perfect in nature, and stand grown trees often tend to have only three First Order Roots. Down-slope...um...errr...hypertrophy(????)... for lac of a better word...is due to them being more of a propping system then an anchor in the soil.

My experiance is with slope release, examining rootplates and clumps of trees that have shifted down-slope. We have driven rod through rootplates, attempting to anchor them. This is a common slope stabilization technique-driving rod in at a right angel to the slop to help hold together potentially unstable strata.
 

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