Pulling Directions on Fall

[TheTreeSpyder]

From MB's Party; i bounced a theory of RB aboput what was the best direction to pull against some SideLean to fall true to gunned face.

If you want to go straight and everything is balanced except 500# leaning left @ 30'; that is 15000# force pulling to the side on the hinge. To fall true, quite logically must be matched by 500# X 30' on R (or a R. rope pull of 250# X 60'; or R. rope pull of 300# X 50'=15000# R. etc.) to balance the pulls. Direction is very important, their can be no movement, not even force without direction (i think); it always must be considered. You must match the strength of the pull to balance forward and the direction of the pull too must be balanced/reciprocated.

If the clock of lean was layed on the ground for direction axis now; a pull to 10 o'clock would have to be matched by a pull to 2 o'clock of equal strength to fall balanced like the needle on a scale to 12o'clock.

The only reason the tree moves is that it is out of balance as you have removed it's holding power against lean; lean wins, it will fall into a balanced rest again; like it was lazily seeking it. You can even plot things to give it that easiest path to follow and chase it into that opening. So, anyway, the tree will fall to the balance of pulls/pushes to sleep again.

To get it there, what direction do you pull with how much? And, if you have less than a matching pull, can you make that up in direction, so as to once again balance to target? What if i can only pull to 1 o'clock against a 10o'clock lean?

The same principals learned on this level, can be taken into the tree and turned sideways etc. IMLHO; but have the same functions.

In all cases, the specificness of direction is important i think; and not just that one, but it's counter direction on the same axis. The most leveraged direction of resistance on compression is straight under lean. So we take wedge out of face, like a chock taken from a tire, to allow the commencement of force, the rolling forward of the tree, on the radius of the hinge.

On the same axis to the reverse, is the most leveraged point of resistance of pull to work from, this is the pocket that the tapered hinge reaches for. Each of these generally give the equal and opposite reaction quite readily for there positions, and Nature seeking the easiest way, therefore using the most leveraged positions the most!

 

[Gypo Logger]

Ken, it's always best for all concerned to cut off all hingewood at just the right time. It's all in the saw. The best climbers are the ones who have mastered their chainsaws. A few that come to mind are RB tree, TreeCo, KFtree and I'm sure I left out at least a couple other renegade climbers.
John

 

[CoreyTMorine]

Spyder thats some nice work.

I have a pulpwood training film from the 30's or 40's, their treatment of lean was quite similar to your ideas on dealing with off center weight. they did not talk about side weight as the balsam fir they were harvesting was very symetrical. They did address how to fall a leaning tree.
Acording to how i remember the movie presentation; if the tree is leaning to 10 o'clock and you would like for it to fall to 12 o'clock then you should make your face to about 2 o'clock, and push to 4 o'clock.
They made the undercut with a bow-saw, then cut the face out with a small very sharp ax, then made the backcut with the bow saw. never, was the idea of a tapered hinge mentioned. (i include that because i have been sceptical of the thoeretical need/ use of the tapered hinge. practically i use it, but i believe that doing so reqires more force ((in the form of wedges, push pole, or pull line)) to be used to overcome the asymetrical hinge. And perhaps for little gain, the idea that leaving (tension)holding wood on the high side of lean is more important than/helpful leaving holding wood on the compresion side doesn't jive. does wood have greater compression strength or tensile strength? I think in living trees about the same. I guess that changes when the wood starts bending and twisting to failure.)
Baraneks treatment of side leaners involves making adjustments to compensate for the distance off center of the tree's top. if the top is 10 feet off center you must gun 10' in the other direction to get the tree to fall true. I believe this is what they are doing by making the face to 2 o'clock in the training film. Remove that aspect from the equation and repalce lean with weight, you would then cut to 12 o'clock and push to 2 o'clock to compensate for weight at 10 o'clock.
In the film they do everything by hand or horse and are very concerned with conservation of energy (old school), leading me to believe that there is less work/force required to actuate the fall using this method.

exciting stuff

What does RB someplace else think?

 

[Ekka]

Ken, it's always best for all concerned to cut off all hingewood at just the right time. It's all in the saw. The best climbers are the ones who have mastered their chainsaws. A few that come to mind are RB tree, TreeCo, KFtree and I'm sure I left out at least a couple other renegade climbers.
John

I suppose you think there's safety in numbers for hazardous practices hey Gypo?

 

[Ekka]

A side leaning tree when felled does not land where the gunned face is pointing. A felled tree lands where the gunned face is pointing PLUS or MINUS the angle of the side lean.

Sounds like a logger's "near enough is good enough" to me, I can put a side leaner right on the money ... but I'm only a stupid qualified and trained arborist! Filter the information, pay for the education and learn from experience but dont believe BS.

 

[CoreyTMorine]

I just reviewed that movie.

I'm not sure this re-post is going to up my credibility rating. The movie is somawhat different than my description. Heres how the film differs and my theories on why i remembered otherwise.

First off; they do use a tapered hinge. I however am going to stand by my theory that a T.H. is not necsasary and inefficient if you could compesate for off center weight by pushing or pulling. In the film there is only one man doing the cutting and pushing, perhaps they recomend a T.H. because compensation doesn't come until the faller puts his saw down and walks around to push on the tree. although they don't say why you use a T.H. it appears to hold the tree from rocking back into the lean while the faller changes position.

This brings us to the second change of recollection; the desired direction off fall is to 11 o'clock, the face is to 10 o'clock (and a little deeper than a typical face), the lean is to 1:30, and the direction of push is towards 8 o'clock. although these directions are different from my memory, the idea of pushing to compensate for lean and not to the desired direction of fall is maintained.
Perhaps my mind adapted, what i knew from the movie, to an example more similar to spyders. Memory and cognitive behaivior are fascinating subjects in and of themselves. I'm glad the changes in recollection did not significantly effect outcome.

Oh, one more thing; they chopped out the entire face cut on the example tree. They only recomend using the bow saw for the undercut in large trees.

The movie is called "so you want to be a woodsman" and is available from www.oldfim.org

 

[CoreyTMorine]

A side leaning tree when felled does not land where the gunned face is pointing. A felled tree lands where the gunned face is pointing PLUS or MINUS the angle of the side lean.

Sounds like a logger's "near enough is good enough" to me, I can put a side leaner right on the money ... but I'm only a stupid qualified and trained arborist! Filter the information, pay for the education and learn from experience but dont believe BS.

Well how do you do it Ekka? is it more acurate to add or subtract the lean plus the sqaureroot of the lean angle minus the offset of the trees shadow? please do elaborate, i find this stuff to be really helpful. I've done a fair ammount of falling, and i'm quite accurate and safe, but definately still learning.

Is this riff between loggers and arborists and euk men for real? if so it is the single most retarding force to the advancement of our industry and livelyhoods. I see the same sort of behaivior going on in murph's post about face cuts, cept going in the opposite direction. Loggers feeling somehow slighted/threatened because an arbo had something to say about falling. And they responded the same way as Ekka, with that kind of mock self depreciating sarcasm. "oh im just a poor dumb wood choppa, but whada i know." What is that? where does it come from? on Murphs post i stated that "its like wearing a sign that says scared." I stand by that, little jabs and quick posts, self depreciation, this all sounds like it comes from being affraid. Fearful of change or of being wrong or embarrased, I don't know.
My 'wife to be' just returned from a seminar where they were discussing cognitive behaivior therapy. one of the key points was that many people would rather be "right" than happy. And that, much of what coucilors need to overcome with their clients is precisly that attitude.
Are you really irritated Ekka ru ? or are you just playing, giving treeco and gypo some Hell ur .

 

[smokechase II]

I couldn't get www.oldfirm.org to come up. Says no says my computer, nothing like that out there. Waaaah.
If by tapered holding wood you mean a triangle shape to the holding wood when viewed from above, I'm all for it. My experience has been if the wood is green and strong, holding wood will compensate for an undesirable lean better than face direction and wedges, (which are great ideas also). However, I noticed a long time ago the local Lodgepole Pine when it was at the blue stain level (just the start of it’s about to rot), no longer had the strength to be utilized this way to control felling direction. So I have to qualify my above statement with a big caveat that your mileage may vary because of all the many variables that crop up in the world of the faller.

 

[Ekka]

What parameters are set in the beginning?

If pull ropes can be used to set momentum why not have a true gunned scarf with a side rope attachment?

Have you not heard of the "tongue and groove" technique? This technique allows a central piece of guiding timber as well as the scarf to maintain direction.

Also, you can dual scarf, first stand the piece up straight then re-align for the fell.

I do not have to hide behind any veil, whether that be my occupation or my wifes.

And yes, why cant loggers and arbos meet in the middle????? We do, every day, just not here. Call it a stir factor, supremecy or cognitive dissidence ... either way, I am what I am.

 

[techdave]

Howdy guys, as an almost nuetral 3rd party, I hate to see you arbos and loggers going at each other. There are good guys and bad guys in both jobs. Sometimes being an arbo may be like doing a loggers job up in a tree, and sometimes a logger may be felling to easy lays.

But it would be a big mistake to think commercial logging is just felling sections and putting trees into vague lays anywhere on the ground, or to think logging is just simple falling of trees in the clear.

Production logging requires carefully planning of the strip layout, and careful placement of each tree within the layout to facilitate the removal of the trees from the strip.

Each tree must fall clear and not land on rocks or old stumps or anyother item which could break the tree, resulting in "mismanufactured lengths", which can greatly reduce the value of the timber. These are just a few of the considerations. Also the sheer volume of falling, limbing and bucking to be done in one day is pretty high, and can be as tiring as draggin brush all day. Crossed lays result in increased danger from funny binds and torques on logs and limbs.

Also modern logging situations often occur on steep or rocky slopes, far from the equipment back at the landing, may even involve the removal of hard to drop trees that were bypassed in previous harvests due to danger or difficulty in getting them down.


Having said all that, I think the average arbo in a well-treed suburban area has to work around high cost houseing and utilites and improvements, so they have to obsess over differences as small as a few inches in rigging and lowering. So MAAYBE a guy could genralize that arbos are more concerned with accuracy.

Play nice, keep the saws in the wood and off of you, and save the beer (steel reserve)for after.


Ps we have deartth of loggers around here to do the post fire cleanup, and for some trees an arbo just will not suffice. period. When you need and experienced c+ faller thats what you need. Just as a non climber cant do most of the residential tree work around here. When you need ballsy little mutha to climb 150 foot Euc overhanging 300 foot canyon a big old treefaller just cant do it!

 

[Gypo Logger]

Sounds like a logger's "near enough is good enough" to me, I can put a side leaner right on the money ...

Hey Ekka, how could you put any tree down with any certainty when your saw is duller than a hoe??
Hahaha
John

 

[Ekka]

Hey Ekka, how could you put any tree down with any certainty when your saw is duller than a hoe??
Hahaha
John

Hey Gypo, the hoes around this part of town are mighty sharp.

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

Sounds like a logger's "near enough is good enough" to me, I can put a side leaner right on the money ... but I'm only a stupid qualified and trained arborist! Filter the information, pay for the education and learn from experience but dont believe BS.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, so a qualified and trained arborist must be like "Jesus", he can perform miricales. Nobody can put a tree on the mark 100% of the time. Every tree is different and every side learner is different. Height, weight, lean, rot, type of wood, etc. will change the situation. Ekka, what % you working on?...hahaha!

 

[Thor's Hammer]

Dear me Denise, Have you been taking extra brain pills lately? your posts seem to have less of the neanderthall about them these days.
Keep up the good work!

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

No pills for me Hammer!.....many years experience felling trees though, and not everyone of them went where they were suppose to. Now Ekka, he's a trained arborist so he's quailified to BS!

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

Dear me Denise, Have you been taking extra brain pills lately? your posts seem to have less of the neanderthall about them these days.
Keep up the good work!

I too must must congratulate you Dennis. Have you been keeping away from them EXTREME chainsaw fumes ????..all that silly ''chainsaw world champion/world record'' this and that isn't at all good for the old grey matter you know...

 

[Thor's Hammer]

No pills for me Hammer!.....many years experience felling trees though, and not everyone of them went where they were suppose to. Now Ekka, he's a trained arborist so he's quailified to BS!

My goodness, now I am getting worried. That post was positively humble!
Are you feeling well?
My sentiments exactly though, both felling trees and rigging limbs. They have occasionaly decided they did'nt want to go they way I was pointing them, and made a dash for freedom in a different direction. No matter how experienced you are, no matter how long you've been doing it, they still have the capacity to surprise us all..........

 

[Thor's Hammer]

Dan, do you find your head gets hot wearing a loggers arsehole as a hat?

 

[CoreyTMorine]

I couldn't get www.oldfirm.org to come up. Says no says my computer, nothing like that out there. Waaaah.
So I have to qualify my above statement with a big caveat that your mileage may vary because of all the many variables that crop up in the world of the faller.

I mispelled the link, try this www.oldfilm.org

If it still doesn't work heres the snail mail adress and phone number.

Northeast Historic Film
P.O. Box 900
Bucksport, ME 04416

(207) 469-0924

re trees; Milage may vary; aye, thats the truth. "Never trust a tree." Rory

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

Dan, do you find your head gets hot wearing a loggers arsehole as a hat?

Ain't that the truth....West coast loggers my arse , West country yokals more like it..