Put the Top Down, Went for a Ride

[clearance]

Clearance how large a diameter will you spear cut?

I said I do up to 3" but 4" may be more like it. Not much larger for me though.

It depends, I was taught to spear/fast cut stuff under 6" by bending my arm and cutting where the undercut would be first then walking the saw back to the topside, cutting wide open the whole time, quickly. A little while back I fast cut a big cedar marm, like about 15" by 40', because the top of tree was dead and I knew it would hang up and get caught with the undercut/backcut method. I cut the bottom and then matched the cut from the top, it worked awesome but my boss was not impressed at all. It is not an approved method, probably frowned on by some, no doubt.

 

[Ekka]

It's just deadly when the cut piece has to fly past you and your head, look out for branches

Nothing beats a really fast saw and sharp chain, keep them revs up.

But I must admit I have been caught too where the piece starts to fold over and you just cant get thru that bloody cut fast enough ... usually your harder timbers not the soft stuff like pine.

Clearance, sounded like an impressive slice that one the boss didn't like ... didn't hit ya did it?

 

[clearance]

No Ekka, it was a big tree like 5' where I was. I made the last cut with one hand, stretched out, hiding my body. When I fast cut tops that are straight up and down, its with one hand of course and I often give the top a shove as soon as it breaks free. If you have stripped the tree you can hold the top for half a second and push/ throw it down as well. When I was being taught this method I screwed up and let a birch top hit the primary, good thing it was new line and single phase, it pushed the line down and got flung off. My foreman was standing on the road watching, he gave me the thumbs up and laughed. I dont advise it for harsh leaners, unless you have a bigger saw with a short bar, the 020/200 just can't cut fast enough.

 

[Tree Machine]

It depends, I was taught to spear/fast cut stuff under 6" by bending my arm and cutting where the undercut would be first then walking the saw back to the topside, cutting wide open the whole time, quickly. A little while back I fast cut a big cedar marm, like about 15" by 40', because the top of tree was dead and I knew it would hang up and get caught with the undercut/backcut method. I cut the bottom and then matched the cut from the top, it worked awesome but my boss was not impressed at all. It is not an approved method, probably frowned on by some, no doubt.

I like leaners. They're a unique challenge. The first challenge is to be able to accurately predict what the top is going to do, and how the part you're on is going to react and how it's going to move (this is before you start up a saw). Every tree is different, so you almost have to extrapolate from knowlege you've gotten from previous experiences. Like a pro billiards player predicting how hard, at what angle with how much back, side or top spin to get the exact result you predict. It's all in your head at that point.

Then you start up a saw and you sink the 8 ball in the side pocket.

I tend to do spear cuts a lot. It sends leaners down vertically, spearing them into the ground. There is a risk with this, and we've covered this type of cut, it's advantages and inherent risks associated with it. If you understand the risks, and know how to prevent them, you enjoy just the advantages. Do a search and type in 'spear'.

A spear cut's main advantage in dealing with a leaning top is that it minimizes the motion that can be generated on the part you are tied into. Avoiding being sling-shotted backwards is always the goal, though landing the limb in a super-tight spot might be part of the purpose. Not having the top come back and whack you on the melon on its way down is essential and that is the only real potential hazard I can see in using this specialized cut. Here's how it's done:

 

[Tree Machine]

The bottom-up cut is done first. Depending on the lean and the amount of weight hanging out there will determine how far up you can com with that cut. There is a high propensity to have the saw get pinched on this bottom-up cut. Get the saw out before the tippytop of the tree starts moving, then, as clearance states, then walking the saw back to the topside , this gives you a straight line as a guide for your next cut. You will do this next cut, from the top coming down and have for it to meet exactly with the other cut-- no under-cut or over-cut. No holding wood. When the top cut meets the bottom cut the top will seperate and drop pretty much at the angle it is leaning at. Since the freshly cut butt end is heavier and wind resistance generally greater toward the end of the limb (more 'drag'), the limb will usually straighten up on its way down, traveling downward and becoming more vertical as it goes down.


It took me about 400 times longer to describe this to you in writing and pictures than it would take to actually do it. It's a fast cut and limbs cut this way tend to not get hung up in the tree you're in, or in closeby trees. Or wires as Clearance describes. And just as importantly, you minimize getting bucked and possibly beaten by the tree.

 

[Tree Machine]

Sometimes you may want the top to fall away more than what just the bottom-up kerf cut would give you, as if there's not too much of a lean to begin with. To do this, just open the bottom-up cut ever so slightly. It's technically a humboldt at this point, but your angles are at the extreme end of what a 'normal' Humboldt cut would look like.

I will normally wail through from top to bottom, just sizzle downward straight through in a single cut to acheive the same response. Razor sharp chain and a powerful saw are prerequisites to taking this shortcut. If your saw ain't fast enough, the top will hinge and tip toward horizontal until you finally cut fully through. At that point you've lost the vertical drop you're seeking and the tip-top can collide with whatever's adjacent. Be careful.

 

[Fireaxman]

I have used spear cuts with great success to remove blowdowns that hung up in neighboring trees, only cutting top first instead of bottom of course since top is compression side on hung up blowdown. I do not know why it did not occur to me to use it on a leaning top. Thanks. Excellent suggestion.

 

[Tree Machine]

I'm not suggesting anybody do this. You can get yourself in trouble.

It IS helpful to understand the technique, though. In certain situations it really IS the safest, swiftest approach.

 

[Fireaxman]

Now yer startin to sound like a lawyer for Stihl, writing the instructions manual for the 200T. Gotta get those disclaimers in I guess.

I can get myself in trouble driving to Walmart.

Risk vs Benefit analysis I guess. I'll practice first on down tops and saplings, as "Arboralliance" suggested.

Thanks for the advice. Fear no evil (lawsuit). I am responsible for my own actions.

 

[Climb020]

I agreed with Mike here. I have done this a few times and worked great. I could feel the top starting to pull the tree. So once the top was commited I finished her off and watched it fly. Just watch when you cut through the hinge. If you do it too soon thoigh it could cause the top to spear down and you might end up getting hit with some of the branches.

 

[Tree Machine]

Gotta get those disclaimers in I guess.

I seriously do not want men getting hurt doing this. If I put a disclaimer on it and state that there are INHERENT DANGERS in using the method someone might ask What ARE those dangers? Climb020 points out that you can get swakked by limbs on the way down. I would add to this, that supposing the spear, right upon seperation, dropped vertically as intended, but the newly cut point of that top gets wedged down between the tree and your flipline and life line. Eeek.

Anyone care to describe what THAT might look like? When boppin a top, you are tied into that which you are cutting. Be aware. Be very aware.

 

[arboralliance]

Spearing...

I spear cut a "humbolt" scarf when the timber is getting bigger to allow for the top to move away first then finish cutting through causing the head etc to spear to ground clear of me...

 

[Fireaxman]

I spear cut a "humbolt" scarf when the timber is getting bigger to allow for the top to move away first then finish cutting through causing the head etc to spear to ground clear of me...

I understand you more clearly this time. I confess I did not fully understand your 7:37 08/12 (Louisiana time) description. I can do this. I think this is the same thing Tree Machine talked about in his 04:08 A.M. posting 08/13. Makes a lot of sense.

And, remember I am just talking about leaners. If I have brush over my head or if there is insufficient angle for the "spear" to clear my tie in point without catching my flipline, I dont think I will be tempted to try it without the humbolt. Rather be tossed around a bit than caught in or by the top

 

[woodchux]

Here is a short vid that I shot of a young climber who spear cut a large limb, and got slapped in the face pretty good. No helmet or PPE. You don't actually see the limb hit him , but you can tell what happened.

http://media.putfile.com/face-slap

 

[arboralliance]

Clearly poor management...

Here is a short vid that I shot of a young climber who spear cut a large limb, and got slapped in the face pretty good. No helmet or PPE. You don't actually see the limb hit him , but you can tell what happened.

http://media.putfile.com/face-slap

The "Boss" of this "young climber" should have known better to fell the limb towards the camera man as there was plenty of room in that direction or even the opposite direction or climb higher and dismantle or allow the limb to fall further away before finishing the spear cut and blantantly obviously only after practising this techique on the ground and under close supervision...

Not a huge tree, not a difficult fell, a tag line or pull rope on it and it would have been sweet, plenty of high points in that tree to tie into, the "young climber" is barely half way into the tree...


Apart from the fact that the "Boss" should have provided PPE and insisted that the "young climber" wear it at all times...

Assuming woodchux that you were just driving past and happened to capture all this on film...

 

[woodchux]

The young climber was the boss back when i shot that film. He tended to mess up the first cut on every job.

 

[arboralliance]

Thank you...

The young climber was the boss back when i shot that film. He tended to mess up the first cut on every job.

woodchux thanks for the clarification and for the great video, I too have sub-contracted to many, many "Arborists" over the years and have some amazing stories...

Hope you are learned now from all your experiences with this guy you videoed and any other "Bosses" you have been entertained by...

Can anyone else comment on the video and techniques for reducing whip in removing heads/ends form long stems?

 

[treeseer]

From the left field bleachers

Can anyone else comment on techniques for reducing whip in removing heads/ends form long stems?

Yeah, sure.

leave the chain saw on the ground, and put a polesaw on the dogleash. Climb up to where you want to be, double-tie in. Use polesaw to reduce end as much as possible. Loblolly branches snap off easy so this goes fast.

Reclip polesaw, unsheath sugoi. Spin to side of cut, make notch, start back cut. Spin yourself behind the cut, saw until it's ready to go. Sheath sugoi, brace knees against stem, then push top over sloooooooooooooooowly.
Much Less thrilling, but much less jerking around.

I can't see using a chainsaw for anything under 10" on pine. Why deal with the weight and the risk, not to mention the noise and fumes? But that's just me; I may be in the minority here...:taped: umpkin2:

 

[Ekka]

Oh please. Guy.

I'm nicknaming you Elmer Fudd. :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[treeseer]

"Oh please. Guy. I'm nicknaming you Elmer Fudd"

Nahh, that ain't me. Elmer was always after that wascally wabbit with that big blunderbuss of a shotgun. I'd use a blowgun on his cottontail.

"You should see the size of his arms from all of that handsawing."

Hey, Popeye got Olive Oyl. These hams are worth a lot.

Buit seriously Fireax, a chainsaw on 6" pine? Even 8"? Talk about lack of control. Do you shoot mosquitoes with a cannon, too?