Recommendations for OWB

[chaikwa]

Log Boiler guy showed up right on time today. Showed me the whole unit, inside and out. Very few parts to wear out or break. Even fewer electronics. It looks like it has been well thought out and constructed. It's basically a propane tank fire box with an air injection system controlled partially by stack temperature. The blower that feeds the air to the fire is variable speed so that the right amount of air is injected no matter how full the firebox may be. The way it is set-up, it's basically working on a gasification principle. All other controls and safeties are common 'analog' type controls found on most boilers and hot water furnaces. The whole water jacket is insulated with spray-on type foam insulation. The top feed door will accept logs up about 4 feet long and 16 inches or so in diameter. There is also a door on the end for conventional loading by hand.

Tom, (the owner), was a no nonsense kind of guy. Gave me a good run-down on the history of his company, the customers that he has and his business values. Although his warranty is only 3 years, it is on everything with no pro-ratings. Quite honestly, I can't see a 3/8" thick firebox burning out or developing a hole in 15 to 20 years unless the water isn't monitored for iron content, and he will give as many free tests a year as anyone wants. The outer water jacket, (tank), is 3/16" thick, so that shouldn't go anywhere either. In talking to him I got the impression that if a weld were to fail or something else were to prematurely wear out and was not caused by something stupid that I had done, he'd stand behind it. I wouldn't expect more than a 1 year warranty on anything electrical anyway, so I don't think 3 years is all that bad over-all.

The boiler is about the same size as any other OWB except it is longer. The width and height appear about the same. Some of that length is attributable to the longer firebox, but some of it also comes from that spacious control closet on the back end. There's more than enough room for pumps, valves and controls and nothing is just jammed into a small space.

Everything about it looked HEAVY. The top door had 2 gas springs to hold it open and they just barely managed the task, altho physically opening it didn't require all that much effort. The smaller end door felt heavy to open but swung easily on 2 heavy hinges.

The only thing that looked cheap was the latch that help that little door closed. It's a common cam-over Staco style clamp. I think I would have used at least the next size up or come up with something of my own design. The inner air injection tubes look like they could possibly be damaged from logs falling into the fire box when top loading, but in talking with Tom, I can't imagine with his background that he would put something cheap and easily damaged in there, KNOWING what it was going to be subjected to. I forgot to ask how thick walled they were, but they were about 2" in diameter, so theoretically they could be 1/4" or 3/8" wall, which should more than withstand the pounding a log dropping on them would cause. I don't think there was much skimping on anything as it weighs around 2 tons empty. Quite honestly, these two items were the only thing I could find fault with. And I'm REAL adept at picking apart another metal workers product!

I was going to take pictures of this thing and totally forgot. I'm in the middle of building a solar kiln and was concentrating on that today. I can build almost anything with steel but wood eludes me. It was giving me issues trying to square up 2 of the walls so I got side-tracked from the picture taking.

Tomorrow, the Hawken rep is coming out. I'll report back on that if anyone is interested as well.

 

[artbaldoni]

How do you empty the ashes out of that huge firebox?

 

[chaikwa]

How do you empty the ashes out of that huge firebox?

The same way you would with any OWB that doesn't have grates or an ash pan. It isn't much, if any, deeper than a large Central Boiler, but it does appear to be bigger in diameter.

I would prefer a grate type of system where the ash falls thru and into a pan or at least a clean out area, but in so far as I can tell, P&M is the only one that does this and they won't call me back.

 

[chaikwa]

Hawken guy came out today. Not much to report except he was extremely honest. Told me he didn't think their biggest unit would do what I need it to do without working it to death. Judging from their literature they look like a decent unit tho.

Talked to the owner of Portage and Main this afternoon too. I had sent them an email detailing my disappointment with their Michigan sales rep due to his reluctance to come to my property. I was assured someone would be getting back with me. We'll see.

 

[rob206]

Did the Log Boiler owner quote a price? That unit looks solid.

 

[chaikwa]

Did the Log Boiler owner quote a price? That unit looks solid.

Yes, 15 grand for the boiler unit only.

 

[chaikwa]

Well, all of the OWB people have come and gone, except for the Portage and Main... they claim their Michigan dealer ALWAYS gets back to potential customers and is their most accommodating dealer. Talked to the owner at the factory in Canada and he promised someone would get back to me last week. Still have heard nothing so I guess they don't care if they sell boilers or not. He also encouraged me to get a wood CHIP boiler. Not really liking that idea because I'd need a chipper that could handle whole trees for what I have here on the property.

So now, after looking at all these pretty boilers, I'm wondering if I should attempt to build one myself. There's really not a lot to them and I'm a welder/fabricator by trade, so I know I could do one. TIME is my only stumbling block as I don't have a lot of it. That and I'm not sure of how to size the thing or where to get an old propane tank from. (I really like a round firebox design as opposed to square)

A few of the dealers tried to sell me on a gasification boiler. Don't know if it would be worth the extra expense. I'd like to think I'm only going to burn seasoned wood, but I know the way the tree companies bring wood in here I'll end up getting at least SOME green wood to the boiler at some point. I like the idea of less smoke seeing as how the OWB will sit right in the middle of the barnyard where we board horses. But on the other hand, we don't make a lot of money from the horses anyway, so if some prissy horse owner didn't like it, they could go down the road without hurting my feelings much!

Too many decisions!

 

[OH_Varmntr]

I'm a 2 hour drive from you. You are more than welcome to come and check out my Central Boiler CL6048 during operation. I did the total install myself and could answer any and all questions you may have about doing so.

I know it's a bit of a drive, but it's an option. :msp_thumbup: On the other hand, there's probably other folks on here that are closer to you that have the other OWBs you mentioned.

Glad to see you are checking them all out though before you pull the trigger on one!

 

[Como]

Shame.

Of the ones you mentioned the Portage and Main would be my choice.

 

[applefarmer]

What exactly are you trying to heat? I guess I am a little suprised the answer the Hawken rep gave you. I would think you could set it up so if the boiler couldn't keep up on the coldest days your fuel oil system would kick in and make up the difference. If your heat load is really that large then just buy 2 and run them together. There is a large hotel up in the keewanow that runs 3 of cb's largest boilers parallel to heat everything.

 

[chaikwa]

Shame.

Of the ones you mentioned the Portage and Main would be my choice.

Shame? My choice from what I've read is the P&M also. I like the firebox design. I like the exhaust routing. I like the air feed design. And I like the water cooled grates and the ash pan ideas. Unfortunately I can't get anyone to respond to me other than the owner himself, and even at that he hasn't followed up on what he's said he's going to do. I can only image what the response would be like if I bought one and had a problem!

What exactly are you trying to heat? I guess I am a little suprised the answer the Hawken rep gave you. I would think you could set it up so if the boiler couldn't keep up on the coldest days your fuel oil system would kick in and make up the difference. If your heat load is really that large then just buy 2 and run them together. There is a large hotel up in the keewanow that runs 3 of cb's largest boilers parallel to heat everything.

I have a big old colonial house with no insulation, a training center on a cement pad that's cement block construction with single pane windows on one whole wall, (north), and no insulation, an office area that's on a raised, hollow concrete pad with a 2' +/- crawl space under it with no access and no insulation and a 30' X 30' living area on the second floor under construction, but that will have a 17' ceiling height. The living area WILL be insulated as will the office walls when I'm done. Altogether, taking into account the high ceiling in the living area, I have about 10,000 total square feet. I REALLY don't WANT the oil to have to kick in, that's kind of my reason for going with an OWB in the first place. I just put $3800 worth of oil in the house and will have to do it again in January or February.

 

[Como]

Shame? My choice from what I've read is the P&M also. I like the firebox design. I like the exhaust routing. I like the air feed design. And I like the water cooled grates and the ash pan ideas. Unfortunately I can't get anyone to respond to me other than the owner himself, and even at that he hasn't followed up on what he's said he's going to do. I can only image what the response would be like if I bought one and had a problem!

I have a big old colonial house with no insulation, a training center on a cement pad that's cement block construction with single pane windows on one whole wall, (north), and no insulation, an office area that's on a raised, hollow concrete pad with a 2' +/- crawl space under it with no access and no insulation and a 30' X 30' living area on the second floor under construction, but that will have a 17' ceiling height. The living area WILL be insulated as will the office walls when I'm done. Altogether, taking into account the high ceiling in the living area, I have about 10,000 total square feet. I REALLY don't WANT the oil to have to kick in, that's kind of my reason for going with an OWB in the first place. I just put $3800 worth of oil in the house and will have to do it again in January or February.

I am in a much colder environment than you are, but had sort of similar issues.

The first thing you need to know is what the current heat load is and what combination of heating and insulation gives you the best bang for the buck.

My guess looking at your HDD and description is that you have a peak load of about 400,000btu's.

Free wood is never quite free, you still have to process it, bigger boilers are more expensive and come with bigger pumps, pipes, heat distribution devices etc etc.

 

[alvise]

I have a CB e-2300 and a CB 6048, if you don't want to split, or you firewood is over 20% humidity stay away from any gassification unit. The nice things abut the old models (not the E series) is the gas backup and gas quick start. They let you go in vacation....
Not splitting is lots of money and time saved.
Never had problem with the 6048, every week something with the e-2300.
I have a fan with a switch on the 6048. I use the switch when I want to boost the heating capacity (more oxygen more hot burning), but you have to be careful, if outside is -10f is a lot of cold air going in your stove and if there is nothing to burn that air don't take long time to cooling down everything (that why i install the switch)
If you look for efficiency a big reservoir (2-3000 gallon) and a full combustion is the way to go (like the GARN boilers).
Building a simple firebox with a water jacket connected to an external reservoir should not be to difficult.
keep us updated

 

[benp]

Well, all of the OWB people have come and gone, except for the Portage and Main... they claim their Michigan dealer ALWAYS gets back to potential customers and is their most accommodating dealer. Talked to the owner at the factory in Canada and he promised someone would get back to me last week. Still have heard nothing so I guess they don't care if they sell boilers or not. He also encouraged me to get a wood CHIP boiler. Not really liking that idea because I'd need a chipper that could handle whole trees for what I have here on the property.

So now, after looking at all these pretty boilers, I'm wondering if I should attempt to build one myself. There's really not a lot to them and I'm a welder/fabricator by trade, so I know I could do one. TIME is my only stumbling block as I don't have a lot of it. That and I'm not sure of how to size the thing or where to get an old propane tank from. (I really like a round firebox design as opposed to square)

A few of the dealers tried to sell me on a gasification boiler. Don't know if it would be worth the extra expense. I'd like to think I'm only going to burn seasoned wood, but I know the way the tree companies bring wood in here I'll end up getting at least SOME green wood to the boiler at some point. I like the idea of less smoke seeing as how the OWB will sit right in the middle of the barnyard where we board horses. But on the other hand, we don't make a lot of money from the horses anyway, so if some prissy horse owner didn't like it, they could go down the road without hurting my feelings much!

Too many decisions!

Coming from someone who deals daily with a home fabricated boiler......

There may not be much to brands in the way of materials but the actual "working design" is a whole 'nother thing.

If you are going to fab one up, my suggestion would be get a SOLID design plan down well before the welder arcs. Study many many brands designs/cut aways and try to take the best from each one.

Water jacket design, material thickness, air flow (natural or forced), etc etc.

It winds up being a gigantic game you play with the boiler of never ending tweaking one way or another. Just when you think you have it figured out, it kicks you in the nuts.


If not already mentioned another boiler brand is GARN. A guy at where I work has one and likes it alot. He has a very low yearly wood consumption.

They have a neat water jacket design and is shown cut away on their website.

Good luck.

 

[leon]

owb

I take it that you have not looked at the Harman indoor boilers yet?

Candidly you could purchase the largest Harman boiler and through the use of heat exchanger heat a very large mass of water say the volume of small railroad tank car that has been retired(8,000 gallons) and that is still in good condition.

The used insulated or non insulated tank car is already pressure rated and tested and running the water at atmospheric pressure with an atmospheric pressure expansion tank solves a pantload of issues for you.

Once you heat the entire water mass up to temperature it takes very little fuel to raise it back up while burning.

In this way you could burn Anthracite coal in three different sizes with your wood feedstock in the SF360 too and have plenty of hot water. The Harman boilers haved a spiral flow burn chamber to get the heat out the wood or coal.

 

[Como]

Gallon of water is about 8lb US. or 10 lb Imperial.

8000 gallons is 64,000lbs = 64,000 btu to raise 1 degree F.

I went with Garn, I have a friend who has a CB 2300 and the only wood he splits are the pieces otherwise too big to go in or lift comfortably. Now he burns his full blast during the winter 24/7.

 

[John R]

I have the dreaded Hawken, (according to this board) it's in it's 6th year of use and not one problem.
I know Hawken gets a bad rap on here but that's my recommendation.
If I were to have to replace it today, I'd get another one just like it.

 

[chaikwa]

Free wood is never quite free, you still have to process it, bigger boilers are more expensive and come with bigger pumps, pipes, heat distribution devices etc etc.

I've already decided to build a firewood processor. I built 2 of them back in the late 80's that the customers were pretty happy with and I've learned a lot since then, so I should be able to build a pretty decent one now! I've always wanted an excuse to have one of my own anyway!

I have a CB e-2300 and a CB 6048, if you don't want to split, or you firewood is over 20% humidity stay away from any gassification unit. The nice things abut the old models (not the E series) is the gas backup and gas quick start. They let you go in vacation....
Not splitting is lots of money and time saved.
Never had problem with the 6048, every week something with the e-2300.
I have a fan with a switch on the 6048. I use the switch when I want to boost the heating capacity (more oxygen more hot burning), but you have to be careful, if outside is -10f is a lot of cold air going in your stove and if there is nothing to burn that air don't take long time to cooling down everything (that why i install the switch)
If you look for efficiency a big reservoir (2-3000 gallon) and a full combustion is the way to go (like the GARN boilers).
Building a simple firebox with a water jacket connected to an external reservoir should not be to difficult.
keep us updated

Good info. Thanks! I know I won't always have the 'perfect' supply of firewood, so I kinda resigned myself to the fact that a gasser probably wouldn't work for me despite it's efficiency.

Coming from someone who deals daily with a home fabricated boiler......

There may not be much to brands in the way of materials but the actual "working design" is a whole 'nother thing.

That's what I figured, hence my hesitation to actually DO it.

I take it that you have not looked at the Harman indoor boilers yet?

I have no place to put a unit indoors. I'd be hard pressed to find a place inside for a storage tank. The house I'm heating has a cellar, but the long term plan is to sell that house.

I have one more guy coming out to talk to me next week from 'Brute Force' furnaces. I'd never heard of them and stumbled on them by accident. They look similar in design to P&M with an ash pan under the firebox, which I kinda liked. They use a 3/8" firebox and weigh about a third more than most of the others I've looked at. After I have that meeting I'll report back.

Thanks for all the replies!

 

[hupte]

I have an old drafty farm house with single pane windows and a separate shop total 5000sqft. I looked and looked for an owb a few years ago but the prices were either too high or the quality was too low. so I built my own. I would definitely recommend coming up with a good design first!!! the first owb took me 40 days and it was a lot of planning, welding redesigning, then torching it apart. also don't try to build it as cheaply as u can, ur gonna own it for 30+ years so make it to last. after the first boiler, I came up with a better design and built 3 more for some friends. I'm gonna try to get some pics on this website in a few days. Im really not a computer guy more of a hands on kinda guy. sitting still drives me nuts. I'll send u my number u can call if you want Ill give u all the ideas I have. the last 3 boilers I built cost about 3000-4000 (depending on the model) for the parts and take about 140 hrs to build. I used a 42" diameter 1/2" wall pipe for the burn chamber. and a 52" diameter 3/4" wall pipe for the water jacket. (I know that is a thicker water jacket than I need but I bought the 52" pipe for scrap price) I also added a smoke bypass so I don't get near as much smoke in my face when loading. my design is loosely based off of a burnrite and heatmor. and woodmaster.
burnrite is ok but their welders could use some more training in my opinion. the welds r ok but could be better. my only problem with woodmaster is they don't hold much water. I wanted mine to hold 300 gallons of water. so u have all that residual heat in the water to keep ur buildings warm. that way if u wanna sleep in, or u work late one night. u don't have to worry about having a cold house. shaver stoves have a low price but u get what u pay for. they have no water level guage. and the dealer told me to just overflow the unit 4 times a season to make sure it has enough water. buy anything except a shaver. timberwolf uses a 7 guage firebox, that's about 1/8 of an inch thick. too thin in my opinion.
cb makes an ok unit but number one they have a square firebox, corners r weak spots like u said, I wasn't impressed with their firebox design, its basically a better built shaver stove, or a natures comfort. I like cb spray foam though. but their prices r outrageous.
natures comfort is ok but all they do is put the chimney pipe deep into the burn chamber to keep the heat in. granted it works, but u get blasted with smoke when loading. plus it LOOKS LIKE (not 100% sure) there is no insulation on the bottom of their stoves between the water and the cold air. also their water temp guage and lights are on the back of the stove. I like being able to walk by the stove, or look out the window to see my water temp. also when u wanna fill ur stove what good is a light on the back gonna do u. they said they kept burning up lights so they put the lights on the back. p&m has an good design for getting as much heat outta the smoke that they can. plus the burn chambers r double welded, good in my opinion. but they r pricy, and all those times the smoke passes thru the water means more linear ft of welds to go wrong. plus lots of smoke in ur face when loading.
heatmor has too many corners, and their bladder design for their water level was just way to complex. also they put sand at the bottom of their burn chambers because they don't have water underneath their fireboxes. the more surface area of water contacting the firebox, the more efficient ur boiler will be. plus they r stainless steel water jackets. also heatmaster, like most manufacturers with stainless water jackets, use about 1/8 water jackets. way too thin in my opinion. woodboiler units have a huge door to load big pieces with a machine, but again it has corners. plus as soon as u open that door ashes and coals r gonna fall out. and ull be cleaning those up. also if u load with a machine it takes longer than throwing a few pieces in by hand. it takes about 30 seconds, maybe a minute, to throw pieces in by hand. to load with a machine would take much longer. granted u would load it less often with a machine and it would b easier. also loading every few days sounds like a great idea but u gotta check on that fire still. I was burning to heat my hot water in the summer and I only had to fill it every 3-4 days but one time I didn't check it for 3 days and I came home late to a cold shower.
wood doctor changed hands too many times for me to trust em. last I heard u could only buy direct from the manufacturer. hawkens r not double welded and those water passages that run thru the firebox will get nailed with pieces of wood over time and will b a leak waiting to happen.

augers r ok but r a lil more time consuming plus when the ashes come out they usually blow around in the wind. same thing with ash pans. I like the demonstration of emptying an ashpan on p&m website. except I don't think ull be able to grab that center handle right after it comes out of a hot stove. shoveling it out gives u more room for wood in the burn chamber but u get a face full of smoke doing it. another thing to consider is if u have a grate it will get clogged while u r cleaning the stove. so u have to rake it unless u get a shaker grate. my grate has 1 inch gaps and it still gets clogged. hope this helps.

 

[Como]

so I kinda resigned myself to the fact that a gasser probably wouldn't work for me despite it's efficiency.

Properly seasoned wood is best no matter what you burn it in.

I have a friend with a CB 2300, no storage space so it is blocked and burnt within a few weeks.

The local school is heated by a gasser, chips, but as they freeze the logs are chipped and used within a week.

So it depends.