ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
Lmfao good luck with that
How many bcma's with masters degrees are going to climb up and supervise?
Regulation in the industry
- Thread starter ducaticorse
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How many bcma's with masters degrees are going to climb up and supervise?
zogger
Tree Freak
Illegals and some other thoughts..hope I am not intruding here
I gave up trying to compete with illegal aliens who can live 12 to an apartment and get all their tools at home depot and return them when busted and say "they don't work" and then get new tools..because home depot doesn't want to be accused of "racism" (know this for a fact from people who work there)
Not tree work but other, remodeling and painting, etc. It's the same deal, it is illegal to hire an illegal alien, there exists a ten thousand dollar fine..it ain't enforced. And where I work now, I am on the last big farm that isn't staffed by illegals in this area.
That's why I have started exploring my options to just move way the heck out and really retire someplace, not this half way retire business, because after three factory jobs overseas, then not being able to continue even making chump change with my next try, and now facing losing farm work..I can smell it coming. Ya'all tree guys, look around, look at the masonry crews and so on, the carpenter crews. they start out all "born here", then a few illegals, then just the boss and all illegals, THEN the illegals get good enough so the little boss gets by passed and his jobs taken completely, and he is so dumb he wonders what happened.
It'll happen with your tree work as well. Any job the elitist goons can't outsource to make maximum profits, they will insource competition that will work so cheap you will eventually just give up. They'll make YOU follow all the regs and stuff, but just watch, they ignore the illegal crews on purpose. I have seen this a few diff places around the nation now, so I bet it is almost universal.
Story: My next door neighbor, back when I lived in atlanta in the 90s was a landscraper. That is ALL he had ever done since he was a teenager, at the time he was my neighbor he was in his mid 30s, joe family guy, the out at sunup back at dark kinda worker. Solid, great neighbor.. He had built up quite a decent clientele at all the fancy upscale places around town, buckhead by chastain park, etc, dunwoody, those places. Ran full crew, had decent equipment, did excellent work.
Within two years he was changing tires for 8 bucks an hour. then he couldn't afford his house and had to sell and move downscale someplace. I watched him go downhill economically in just two years, all due to the illegals and lack of enforcement of laws on the books.
That's all the time it took for the illegal alien crews to come in and undercut him on job after job so severely he just couldn't turn a minimum wage working. He gave up, sold his gear, got the tire changing job. He got down to just himself working, that's it, even then, he eventually lost his last few clients who all wanted it done cheaper, because the illegal alien crews are relentless on hustling jobs, and they do "good enough"" work, and eventually they do comparable work..
Hell, I had one happen to me one day. I am up on scaffolding, done my scraping and wood fixing, now priming some wood. Right smack dab over the front door at a decent upper middle class house. Van pulls up fulla illegals, one gets out, comes over, walks under me to the door, rings the bell. Homeowner comes out, the illegal says "whatever he is charging, we finish the job, half price"! I AM NOT KIDDING THAT HAPPENED. I just about lost it and was gonna accidentally drop a hammer....
No, I didn't get replaced, but this is how they operate. I eventually did get repaced by enough clients, I just gave up, packed up, gave up my house, sold most of my stuff, took off up here and took whatever I could find that did me ewnough to keep a roof over my head and that's it, sort of enforced semi retirement. Just got sick of trying to make do with less and less and less, especially as I was getting older and trying to keep working after a bad injury....bah...
And the illegals ignore any regs, permits, any of that, and the gov guys seem to always look the other way, like they are TOLD to do that. How do those people drive legal, or even buy and register and insure cars and trucks? The answer is, the gov looks the other way and accepts any joke piece of paper "ID" they show. And they never enforce that "you can't hire illegals or ten grand fine" thing. It is SO blatant there is only one explanation..it is on purpose.
The government doesn't give a crap, the obvious plan is a two class society, ultra rich, then peons/serfs. That's why they love china, their poster boy nation, ultra controlled from the top, all the little peeps so desperate for work they will do anything for a few coins, work any hours under any working conditions, etc.
That's why they let them get away with shipping off the blue collar manufacturing jobs in the US, kill the industrial unions by co-opting union management to make them be ultra stupid on wages, etc, (while propping up the government unions and giving them more power and pensions and so on and so forth), why they let millions of illegals in, to force down wages for what can't be offshored. Wipe out and make near impossible any rural job unless you are part of the selected big global corporations, like that one begins with an M and wants to own and patent everything living as regards "food". Look at mining, timbering, farming, from 40 years ago to today...
I'm a farmer and I despise that "M" company, BTW...
Every single thing these globalists do is engineered to kill off/bankrupt the established middle class in this nation, including all mom and pop businesses, and eventually it will impact ya'alls tree businesses as well, because I imagine most of you qualify as small scale mom and pop size. It doesn't matter how clean you keep your nose, how well you work, all the papers you sign and regs you follow..eventually they'll let 'the competition" run you into bankruptcy or working for sub chump change.
They have done it to everything else, every single skilled and semi skilled trade out there, plus the bulk of the manufacturing blue collar type work (and now tons of the white collars who seem surprised that other folks can learn to type at a computer workstation and will do it for 1/5th the pay), so no reason to think you'll be omitted..
This plan-or I'll just call it an overwhelming trend- has an endgame of a two class aristocracy type society.
And it is both major parties wink wink nod nod at this, it's not just "duh libruls". Both parties are controlled upstream, politicians are their sock puppets, and they play one group of victims off against the other so the real perps aren't looked at..
They differ only in the order of which born-with rights they want to strip from you first, and from which pocket they will pick to take all your money and tell you you are in "debt" for some reason. That's the only real diff in those two big parties I can see, following politics for over half a century now.
They are recreating a feudalistic society, that is what they want. They want all that aristocratic jazz back, just without calling it "royal".
Anyway, blah blah. More regs, less regs..end game is they will only apply to you, not to the "privileged" competition that is designed (and allowed) to put you back in your place as a serf to the elite. The government is always willing to sell you a piece of paper that says you can go to work, or travel..or do this or that. It really doesn't matter if it means you are competent or not, it is just another revenue stream for them and another means of control they get from you.
Anyway sorry for intruding again. Just thought I would throw in some stuff I have thought long and hard about, combined with a lot of years of observation. History just don't lie, the parallels with previous societies and practices are overwhelmingly clear. Civilizations/empires always evolve into what you see now, the sociopaths in charge.
Then, a tipping point is reached..and it gets real dang ugly. Then, lather, rinse, repeat. We have higher tech now and more "shiny" then empires in the past..all the rest is exactly the same. The biggest predators and crooks always wind up in charge, and joe little guy suffers.
I gave up trying to compete with illegal aliens who can live 12 to an apartment and get all their tools at home depot and return them when busted and say "they don't work" and then get new tools..because home depot doesn't want to be accused of "racism" (know this for a fact from people who work there)
Not tree work but other, remodeling and painting, etc. It's the same deal, it is illegal to hire an illegal alien, there exists a ten thousand dollar fine..it ain't enforced. And where I work now, I am on the last big farm that isn't staffed by illegals in this area.
That's why I have started exploring my options to just move way the heck out and really retire someplace, not this half way retire business, because after three factory jobs overseas, then not being able to continue even making chump change with my next try, and now facing losing farm work..I can smell it coming. Ya'all tree guys, look around, look at the masonry crews and so on, the carpenter crews. they start out all "born here", then a few illegals, then just the boss and all illegals, THEN the illegals get good enough so the little boss gets by passed and his jobs taken completely, and he is so dumb he wonders what happened.
It'll happen with your tree work as well. Any job the elitist goons can't outsource to make maximum profits, they will insource competition that will work so cheap you will eventually just give up. They'll make YOU follow all the regs and stuff, but just watch, they ignore the illegal crews on purpose. I have seen this a few diff places around the nation now, so I bet it is almost universal.
Story: My next door neighbor, back when I lived in atlanta in the 90s was a landscraper. That is ALL he had ever done since he was a teenager, at the time he was my neighbor he was in his mid 30s, joe family guy, the out at sunup back at dark kinda worker. Solid, great neighbor.. He had built up quite a decent clientele at all the fancy upscale places around town, buckhead by chastain park, etc, dunwoody, those places. Ran full crew, had decent equipment, did excellent work.
Within two years he was changing tires for 8 bucks an hour. then he couldn't afford his house and had to sell and move downscale someplace. I watched him go downhill economically in just two years, all due to the illegals and lack of enforcement of laws on the books.
That's all the time it took for the illegal alien crews to come in and undercut him on job after job so severely he just couldn't turn a minimum wage working. He gave up, sold his gear, got the tire changing job. He got down to just himself working, that's it, even then, he eventually lost his last few clients who all wanted it done cheaper, because the illegal alien crews are relentless on hustling jobs, and they do "good enough"" work, and eventually they do comparable work..
Hell, I had one happen to me one day. I am up on scaffolding, done my scraping and wood fixing, now priming some wood. Right smack dab over the front door at a decent upper middle class house. Van pulls up fulla illegals, one gets out, comes over, walks under me to the door, rings the bell. Homeowner comes out, the illegal says "whatever he is charging, we finish the job, half price"! I AM NOT KIDDING THAT HAPPENED. I just about lost it and was gonna accidentally drop a hammer....
No, I didn't get replaced, but this is how they operate. I eventually did get repaced by enough clients, I just gave up, packed up, gave up my house, sold most of my stuff, took off up here and took whatever I could find that did me ewnough to keep a roof over my head and that's it, sort of enforced semi retirement. Just got sick of trying to make do with less and less and less, especially as I was getting older and trying to keep working after a bad injury....bah...
And the illegals ignore any regs, permits, any of that, and the gov guys seem to always look the other way, like they are TOLD to do that. How do those people drive legal, or even buy and register and insure cars and trucks? The answer is, the gov looks the other way and accepts any joke piece of paper "ID" they show. And they never enforce that "you can't hire illegals or ten grand fine" thing. It is SO blatant there is only one explanation..it is on purpose.
The government doesn't give a crap, the obvious plan is a two class society, ultra rich, then peons/serfs. That's why they love china, their poster boy nation, ultra controlled from the top, all the little peeps so desperate for work they will do anything for a few coins, work any hours under any working conditions, etc.
That's why they let them get away with shipping off the blue collar manufacturing jobs in the US, kill the industrial unions by co-opting union management to make them be ultra stupid on wages, etc, (while propping up the government unions and giving them more power and pensions and so on and so forth), why they let millions of illegals in, to force down wages for what can't be offshored. Wipe out and make near impossible any rural job unless you are part of the selected big global corporations, like that one begins with an M and wants to own and patent everything living as regards "food". Look at mining, timbering, farming, from 40 years ago to today...
I'm a farmer and I despise that "M" company, BTW...
Every single thing these globalists do is engineered to kill off/bankrupt the established middle class in this nation, including all mom and pop businesses, and eventually it will impact ya'alls tree businesses as well, because I imagine most of you qualify as small scale mom and pop size. It doesn't matter how clean you keep your nose, how well you work, all the papers you sign and regs you follow..eventually they'll let 'the competition" run you into bankruptcy or working for sub chump change.
They have done it to everything else, every single skilled and semi skilled trade out there, plus the bulk of the manufacturing blue collar type work (and now tons of the white collars who seem surprised that other folks can learn to type at a computer workstation and will do it for 1/5th the pay), so no reason to think you'll be omitted..
This plan-or I'll just call it an overwhelming trend- has an endgame of a two class aristocracy type society.
And it is both major parties wink wink nod nod at this, it's not just "duh libruls". Both parties are controlled upstream, politicians are their sock puppets, and they play one group of victims off against the other so the real perps aren't looked at..
They differ only in the order of which born-with rights they want to strip from you first, and from which pocket they will pick to take all your money and tell you you are in "debt" for some reason. That's the only real diff in those two big parties I can see, following politics for over half a century now.
They are recreating a feudalistic society, that is what they want. They want all that aristocratic jazz back, just without calling it "royal".
Anyway, blah blah. More regs, less regs..end game is they will only apply to you, not to the "privileged" competition that is designed (and allowed) to put you back in your place as a serf to the elite. The government is always willing to sell you a piece of paper that says you can go to work, or travel..or do this or that. It really doesn't matter if it means you are competent or not, it is just another revenue stream for them and another means of control they get from you.
Anyway sorry for intruding again. Just thought I would throw in some stuff I have thought long and hard about, combined with a lot of years of observation. History just don't lie, the parallels with previous societies and practices are overwhelmingly clear. Civilizations/empires always evolve into what you see now, the sociopaths in charge.
Then, a tipping point is reached..and it gets real dang ugly. Then, lather, rinse, repeat. We have higher tech now and more "shiny" then empires in the past..all the rest is exactly the same. The biggest predators and crooks always wind up in charge, and joe little guy suffers.
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
Personally I don't consider a scum sucking low balling hack competition, they are more of a parasite .. not paying legal dues to gov't for most part (if any do).
Most of the guys are not looking for elimination of competition, just elimination of CL hacks who do not follow rules in place.. and they want them enforced..
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
Exactly.
Which is why the argument that homeowners will hire you (if you are legit and insured) is a crock..
You see.. homeowners think they are hiring somebody insured.. and who simply provides better pricing for the same services.
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
And so do a lot of the CL hacks..
You should stick to the restaurant business if you want regulations ruling your life.
I don't have a problem with cheap tree hacks. Yeah they may get under my skin once in a while but 80% of the time I get the job and not them. If a hack wants to go around picking up scraps here and there then be it. Thats no way I want to run a biz because I don't have to. My customers are better than that.
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
Rftreeman
Addicted to ArboristSite
seems the problem is with the CL hacks, why don't you guys petition CL to stop allowing the hacks to advertise there...
Grace Tree
Impossible Access
That's mighty funny.
sgreanbeans
Treeaculterologist
What we are doing in my area
1. forming a coalition of tree services that represent the industry
2. Coalition will establish a basic knowledge test
3. Test will be administered to all those who want, test will focus on safety and care of trees
4. required to sign Code of Ethics
5. All members will be a "Tree Warden"
6. CA's and Degrees automatically get a pass
7. Membership not required, test is
8. Present test and Code to city clerk, along with normal paper work to get license
9. Raising license fee from 50 to 200
10. All trucks will be properly marked
11. CPR and first Aid certs required
12. Coalition will be a 501(3)c, not for profit.
13. Coalition will monitor all members status with the surrounding city's, ensuring they are maintaining valid licenses, insurance and bonds.
14. All operating tree services, members or not will be required to maintain all documentation on the site, if not, they will be shut down until they get it.
We have more stuff we are working on. Have meet with the local city's, behind us 100% We are making the rules, they will enforce. Already have the main city changing ordinance's. Police will back up Tree Wardens. If they are caught operating, they will be shut down, given a package that will guide them from the dark side, should they wish to do so. Test will be basic, stuff everybody needs to know. You can not stop a H.O. from topping a tree, its his tree. You can stop a business from doing it tho. The idea is not to run everybody out of town, they will have the opportunity to join. The idea is to improve safety and care of the trees in our area. Although it will happen, as some are just criminals/druggies with a chainsaw.Those guys, we want gone. Topping is running a muck here, everyday I see a new one. It has got to stop. 2 people this month have almost died doing tree work. One was hit in the head by a 8" dia 3ft long chunk, hit him in the head, no hard hat, lucky to be alive, but will never be the same. Other one has spinal damage, will never work again.
Coalition will provide annual training, tail gate class materiel. The main city, and the CA for them have offered up their facility's for the coalition's meetings, classes and so on. Coalition will bring in hired guns, such as JPS for higher education, Arbor Master courses. CPR classes will be avail, once a month via the main city, at no charge!
Building a collective library for our employees and new members. Non members will not have access to this.
So, in a nut shell, we are moving this along, we still have kinks to work out, and gotta get everything signed off buy the city attorneys. So far they think we are on right track. There will be no excuse for these guys, they will have every opportunity to join. If they do not want to do it, then go work at Hardees, they are always looking for good help.
No one will be "made" to join. They will have to take the test, will be a city requirement. They will have to sign the Code at the city office when they go to get their license. So, non members will be able to operate just as we do, as long as they play buy the rules. Test will be offered at monthly meetings.
1. forming a coalition of tree services that represent the industry
2. Coalition will establish a basic knowledge test
3. Test will be administered to all those who want, test will focus on safety and care of trees
4. required to sign Code of Ethics
5. All members will be a "Tree Warden"
6. CA's and Degrees automatically get a pass
7. Membership not required, test is
8. Present test and Code to city clerk, along with normal paper work to get license
9. Raising license fee from 50 to 200
10. All trucks will be properly marked
11. CPR and first Aid certs required
12. Coalition will be a 501(3)c, not for profit.
13. Coalition will monitor all members status with the surrounding city's, ensuring they are maintaining valid licenses, insurance and bonds.
14. All operating tree services, members or not will be required to maintain all documentation on the site, if not, they will be shut down until they get it.
We have more stuff we are working on. Have meet with the local city's, behind us 100% We are making the rules, they will enforce. Already have the main city changing ordinance's. Police will back up Tree Wardens. If they are caught operating, they will be shut down, given a package that will guide them from the dark side, should they wish to do so. Test will be basic, stuff everybody needs to know. You can not stop a H.O. from topping a tree, its his tree. You can stop a business from doing it tho. The idea is not to run everybody out of town, they will have the opportunity to join. The idea is to improve safety and care of the trees in our area. Although it will happen, as some are just criminals/druggies with a chainsaw.Those guys, we want gone. Topping is running a muck here, everyday I see a new one. It has got to stop. 2 people this month have almost died doing tree work. One was hit in the head by a 8" dia 3ft long chunk, hit him in the head, no hard hat, lucky to be alive, but will never be the same. Other one has spinal damage, will never work again.
Coalition will provide annual training, tail gate class materiel. The main city, and the CA for them have offered up their facility's for the coalition's meetings, classes and so on. Coalition will bring in hired guns, such as JPS for higher education, Arbor Master courses. CPR classes will be avail, once a month via the main city, at no charge!
Building a collective library for our employees and new members. Non members will not have access to this.
So, in a nut shell, we are moving this along, we still have kinks to work out, and gotta get everything signed off buy the city attorneys. So far they think we are on right track. There will be no excuse for these guys, they will have every opportunity to join. If they do not want to do it, then go work at Hardees, they are always looking for good help.
No one will be "made" to join. They will have to take the test, will be a city requirement. They will have to sign the Code at the city office when they go to get their license. So, non members will be able to operate just as we do, as long as they play buy the rules. Test will be offered at monthly meetings.
jrr344
Addicted to ArboristSite
It is not them, people are hiring them and pay them and apparently giving referals to other people to keep them in business. Government regs aren't going to stop people from doing something that is already illegal and I highly doubt these people hiring would use you anyways or they would have called you in the first place. Secondly if they do make a mistake they can always hire you the second round to fix the first mess up and work is work.
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
Quite possibly true.. although I have had people call and then call back saying they picked so and so to do job for $150.00 (or some similar figure).. not sure how you can bring two or three guys and equipment to a site for a coffee break for the money some of these guys charge.. never mind actually doing some work.
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
And there is the killer bannnnnnnnnnnnt
Ever see a warden get his ass whipped? Btw does the CA give you a pass at the fees?
Grace Tree
Impossible Access
Are you going to call it the Iowa Self Protection Association? Make sure you write that whole mess in stone somewhere with your name in big red letters 'cause 10 years from now someone's going to wonder who the dumb arse was that thought it was a good idea.
Just my humble opinion,
Phil
beowulf343
Addicted to ArboristSite
CRAP LIKE THIS MAKES ME WANT TO PUKE!
So basically, any company climber that wants to do a couple buzzies over the weekend for friends and family for the cost of a couple cold ones, can't do it because the cops (who i thought had better things to do) will be there to shut him down until they pay the 200 dollars, and get tested, and sign a "code of ethics", and have insurance, and etc, etc. Yeah, this is a good way to stop guys like me from doing cheap work in your town. Get a grip, not every guy that does a job with a pickup and a saw is a hack. I do a couple jobs a month for friends and family with a pickup and a saw because they don't want to pay the big bucks. Good example, had a friend of my grandma with a couple big silver maples that needed taken down. Every quote was over $1700. I did it for gas money, a couple of cases of beer for my roper, and for fun. Granted, my work crew would have done the job in an hour, and it took me three weekends, but the friend was happy. The point is, i am most definitely not a hack, yet you want to run me out of town because that's $1700 you didn't get your hands on.
It would be a cold day in hell before i took a test from a bunch of behind the desk "tree wardens" to prove my ability to work in the town.
The certified arborist thing is laughable, all you are going to do is make more hacks certified arborists. It's not that hard to get. I've got one and most of the people here consider the work i do as something an arborist shouldn't do.
Of course the attorney's think you are on the right track, they're getting paid, right?
"The dark side?" This is what i seriously dislike about guys like you. You think you are so completely right that everyone who doesn't do things your way is just doing them wrong by default. You know, things that were taught as the right way fifteen years ago are now wrong, and i have no doubt that fifteen years from now, some of the current right ways being taught will be looked back on as being wrong.
beowulf343
Addicted to ArboristSite
Edit isn't working.
That last part really burns me up. Companies can choose to not be a "tree warden" but they are forced by the city to take your little test. Wonder how the scoring on those will go for outfits you don't like-"i'm sorry, you failed the test and we can't allow you to get your license."
I see this as a way for you to lord it over others.
That last part really burns me up. Companies can choose to not be a "tree warden" but they are forced by the city to take your little test. Wonder how the scoring on those will go for outfits you don't like-"i'm sorry, you failed the test and we can't allow you to get your license."
I see this as a way for you to lord it over others.
Rftreeman
Addicted to ArboristSite
So basically if I'm already legit but I didn't want to be a part of your click and work the way YOU feel I should then I couldn't get a license in your city but you main objective is not to run anyone out of business.....
Are you that scared of your competition.......
ducaticorse
Addicted to ArboristSite
I protect my business as it's my life. if I want current rules enforced, and companies fined for illegal business practices, there is nothing wrong with that. Lets see how anti-reg you are when a chem co wants to put a landfill in your back yard LOL.......
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