sgreanbeans
Treeaculterologist
It is all clear to me now! Thanks
Regulation in the industry
- Thread starter ducaticorse
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Slvrmple72
Addicted to ArboristSite
2011, The year of the cut throat/ cut rate tree service! The guy with the least amount of debt, no debt, and can keep his equipment, nerves together while squeezing every nickel and dime out of Bob and Sally Cheapskate wins!:bulgy-eyes:
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
Agreed!!
Now IF there were a licensing system in place.. then it would NEED to include some sort of tiered system.. whereby you were licensed for separate parts of tree work. Now don't over complicate -- but make something so guys doing removals - or landscapers doing pruning could get in as well) Have basic set of requirements - insurance, workers comp, whatever... and then maybe some sort of test for the other -- and depending on what you did would depend on test. No need for CA.. there are guys out there who can do a darn fine arborist job and don't have CA. And don't assume CA gets auto pass.. all have to do same test.
Would (potentially) ensure that the guys doing the removals still kept in line and had insurance, etc. I say potentially, as compliance to any rule is only about as good as the enforcement and penalty involved. No enforcement then waste of time, penalty not steep enough still waste of time.
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
Wow.. sounds like fun. Where do we sign up..
Should have a thread to see who can write the best ad for this customer and work
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
Is it?
Many trades are regulated.. some that are not maybe should be.
Now we are bringing in a regulation for carpenters/builders in our area.. frankly a PITA.. but because of unscrupulous trades people this is what happens. If I understand correctly they have broken down the building of a house into 5 distinct area.. and you either have 5 people to build the house.. or one person with all 5 licenses.
Now this to me.. could be wrong.. and is only going to make house prices rise somewhat.
Now plumbers are regulated, even have a code. Electricians are regulated, even have a code.
Crane operators are licensed. Any lift operator needs to have training and card.
We could go on..
You say this is for safety.. (for plumbers .. really.. more for ensuring somebody does the job right and does not cheap out)
But we are in an industry where you can throw on some equipment (or not) climb 100ft in the air, start a chain saw and begin dropping chunks of wood weighing hundreds of pounds on the ground below. No training mandatory, no insurance mandatory, no workers comp (well may be mandatory but some don't have)..
Ok some don't do removals but may top a customers tree (ok no way to stop that
).. or do a hack prune job.. Really regulation is not going to stop some of this.. but it may help... or may not..
Tell me.. why do you think some of the other trades are regulated and we are not?
Is it because ours is safer, is it because ours is smaller and falls under radar, is it because we have less accidents per worker so not necessary, is it because we all follow the rules so no need to legislate, what is reason....
You say it is to monopolize.. but other trades thrive with rules in place.
I realize over regulation is bad.. I realize that government for the most part is not the best one to control anything..
But to me there also sounds like there are some on here who are afraid of any licensing or mandatory rules.. so they are defensive against them..
Some mention the weekend warrior.. well that does not stop them if they comply wiht rules.. An electrician can work on the weekend.. as can a plumber.. BUT they as an individual need to be licensed vs the company. They also legally need workers comp, a tax number (at least here), etc..
Is it?
Many trades are regulated.. some that are not maybe should be.
Now we are bringing in a regulation for carpenters/builders in our area.. frankly a PITA.. but because of unscrupulous trades people this is what happens. If I understand correctly they have broken down the building of a house into 5 distinct area.. and you either have 5 people to build the house.. or one person with all 5 licenses.
Now this to me.. could be wrong.. and is only going to make house prices rise somewhat.
Now plumbers are regulated, even have a code. Electricians are regulated, even have a code.
Crane operators are licensed. Any lift operator needs to have training and card.
We could go on..
You say this is for safety.. (for plumbers .. really.. more for ensuring somebody does the job right and does not cheap out)
But we are in an industry where you can throw on some equipment (or not) climb 100ft in the air, start a chain saw and begin dropping chunks of wood weighing hundreds of pounds on the ground below. No training mandatory, no insurance mandatory, no workers comp (well may be mandatory but some don't have)..
Ok some don't do removals but may top a customers tree (ok no way to stop that
Really regulation is not going to stop some of this.. but it may help... or may not..
Tell me.. why do you think some of the other trades are regulated and we are not?
Is it because ours is safer, is it because ours is smaller and falls under radar, is it because we have less accidents per worker so not necessary, is it because we all follow the rules so no need to legislate, what is reason....
You say it is to monopolize.. but other trades thrive with rules in place.
I realize over regulation is bad.. I realize that government for the most part is not the best one to control anything..
But to me there also sounds like there are some on here who are afraid of any licensing or mandatory rules.. so they are defensive against them..
Some mention the weekend warrior.. well that does not stop them if they comply wiht rules.. An electrician can work on the weekend.. as can a plumber.. BUT they as an individual need to be licensed vs the company. They also legally need workers comp, a tax number (at least here), etc..
here....the HO can say they are doing the work themselves & as long as it is to code...........no problem!!
many plumbers, electricians, framers, excavators do side work!! The problem is you are not going to enforce those regulations, what SGB said they`re planning will only have people working around the clock in ways to by pass things....
you hit the nail on the head.........it will make prices rise, significantly!! & guess what? those who were "hacks" will now make enough to be legit competition & still put the cowardly regulation seekers outts biz....
the bottom line is............either become competitive regarding your local area or move on into another line of work, Ive been dealing with what you are talking about for years...............bottom line: I adjust, do good work & my rep speaks for itself so my work plate is always full!! Thank God!!!!!
LXT..................
JNGWC&Tree
ArboristSite Member
I think some regulation is overboard. Some of this talk about coalitions, tree wardens, and the like is not really the right path. I look at Maryland as a model of what not to do.
The biggest revolution in stabilizing rates and making fair competition in my opinion is not insurance requirements or certifications, but instead eliminating the competition from those who do not pay taxes on their earnings. The "cash job" undeclared income factor allows a larger fluctuation in rates in my opinion than any overhead considerations. This is also the same faction of tree men that will continue to operate no matter what regs you put into place with a "coalition" or what not. A trimmer that operates outside of commerce is technically illegal so what will he care of more rules?
When a customer asks me for my "cash" price, I tell him the same a I already quoted. What most customers mean by that is "can you shave a little off the top and still come out ahead by being a tax cheat?", yet a more tactful way of asking it.
The biggest revolution in stabilizing rates and making fair competition in my opinion is not insurance requirements or certifications, but instead eliminating the competition from those who do not pay taxes on their earnings. The "cash job" undeclared income factor allows a larger fluctuation in rates in my opinion than any overhead considerations. This is also the same faction of tree men that will continue to operate no matter what regs you put into place with a "coalition" or what not. A trimmer that operates outside of commerce is technically illegal so what will he care of more rules?
When a customer asks me for my "cash" price, I tell him the same a I already quoted. What most customers mean by that is "can you shave a little off the top and still come out ahead by being a tax cheat?", yet a more tactful way of asking it.
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
This would or should make the price go up for same reason as contractor on homes likely.. will knock the low end out of the business. (maybe)
But.. it should not raise costs for the legitimate operator (or it is wrong). So while it would raise average price by eliminating the low baller pricing (maybe), it should not raise price of the rest of industry (otherwise greed and gouging is taking place or legislation is wrong).
Those who were hacks may now make more money, because they are charging more (.. but if the system were enforced they would also have to be licensed or whatever the term is).
I think what they are trying to do (will it work.. likely questionable if not carefully enforced).. is to :
a) bring some standardization to quality of work by offering training
b) bring some control to pricing for services offered - here as an example dentists have this - they have a "schedule" updated each year with a range of what to charge for services rendered
c) bring some level of confidence in safety to HO by ensuring all have insurance of minimum level
d) bring better control on contribution to community/society - presumably if members have license they will pay taxes (hopefully)
May have missed some.. some of this may be dreaming in technocolor..
I think what many are talking about here are a form of right-to-title/right-to-practice type legislation. This is pretty common for professionals eg doctors, lawyers, engineers but isn't as common or strong in the 'trades'. I think TQ (red seal) trades (plumber, electricians, gas fitters etc) have a limited form but it is more related to the "codes' their work must conform to.
Here in BC, gov't and industry in the final stages of having an residential/commercial arborist apprenticeship program in place. This would comparable to the licenced utility arborist.
As regards to private property rights, I think this has always been a myth. Gov't has always had capability to dictate some things that happen on private property, whether it is zoning bylaws, building code etc.
Here in BC, gov't and industry in the final stages of having an residential/commercial arborist apprenticeship program in place. This would comparable to the licenced utility arborist.
As regards to private property rights, I think this has always been a myth. Gov't has always had capability to dictate some things that happen on private property, whether it is zoning bylaws, building code etc.
JNGWC&Tree
ArboristSite Member
Wow.. sounds like fun. Where do we sign up..
Should have a thread to see who can write the best ad for this customer and work
It's here. This one is from a local company on CL. Lots of chippers, trucks, and 200Ts for sale in very unusual amounts on CL with new ones added daily, and several whole companies.
"we are a tree company that is licensed and insured, that is trying to keep our guys busy this winter. times get tough, anyway our team is offering very reasonable rates for tree work. we hope that this approuch will help us keep busy. we can work for tools, trucks, trailers or accept check and cash. please respond to this ad if you need any tree work. and either way thanks for reading."
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ducaticorse
Addicted to ArboristSite
LOL, or this scab bastard. Maybe LXT can branch out to the New England area, and partner up with this clown, since he feels it's ok to conduct business in this manner.
BTW I know for a FACT that this guy is uninsured, never worked for a forestry dept, and certainly isn't insured or licensed. ALL OF HIS ADD IS A LIE except for the phone number. He honestly doesn't own a chainsaw. Borrows, and rents all of his equipment. He pathologically lies to his potential customers, and it disgusts me to no end...
JMac Tree Service. Quality,Reliable & Clean Full Service Tree Company
who would know if payment has been given? & most will pay cash!
We can beat this dead horse for days..........but in the end our trade does not stand out amongst: plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc... often ours is thought of in a lesser fashion, I wish it wasnt so, but it is.
why do you guys think anyone who loses their job & has a lawn mower, chainsaw, weedeater & a pickup truck all of a sudden becomes a lawn service/tree service?
lets face it anyone can cut grass!!! & the average home owner thinks the same of "anyone can cut trees" thats why many HO`s try it themselves, only to find out they are scared to death & feel they just need someone who "can hack that limb off & not be skeerd"
how many times Ive heard .........If I was just 15yrs younger id do it myself?
LXT.............
sgreanbeans
Treeaculterologist
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
:agree2:
Nah, not my cup of tea!! LOL,
ya see the problem is........you guys wanna dictate whats wrong & whats right!
thats what I dont like, as far as my biz goes....I am registered, certified, insured & belong to many organizations, I conduct & engage in as honest a biz as one can!! I deal with all the same BS you guys are complaining about............BUT, the big difference is I confront it head on by being BETTER than my competition...........Not by crying foul, maybe we should send an NFL Referee out for you girls to throw yellow flags at the competition & penalize them! LMFAO
SOooo... instead of crying about the "hack" or the non insured, equipment borrowing, untalented services out there.................Man up, do a good job, be reasonable (instead of thinking your the only game in town) & your biz will be fine.
jeeez.....I thought we had tree men on here?? instead we have a group that needs Dr. Phil to council them in regards to obsesive, compulsive, I want it all disorder!!!!
good luck on regulating this field.....honestly it wont matter to me either way, It`ll just mean more paperwork, rules to follow, less work cause of higher pricing! But either way you wont hear me crying!!!
LXT..................
We are better!!! but you need to take into consideration the rest of what I posted! the biggest investment one makes is in their home.... by all means those related to that field are gonna be regulated more strictly than other trades.
how many roofers do you know that can pass a drug test!!! how many drywallers??? hell, even the excavators & masons dont fall into being regulated like the mentioned trades!! again....its something that easily goes un-noticed & often thought of as grunt work/ labor/back breaking....a job for the un educated!
NOT THAT I AGREE WITH THAT MENTALITY............but it is how certain jobs are perceived, lets face it.....who wants to have to spend money on trimming/removing trees? but that same person will overcharge his visa card for a remodel job!!
LXT................
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
So as we always used to say.. "preception is reality".. so how do we change preception.
Issue is a lot of the general public do not know:
a) what kind of training it takes to do tree work properly and safely
b) how much equipment the tree companies have and how much it costs.. the average ho would crap at the cost of a chainsaw (a pro model not a 30 cc WildThingy).. let alone a GRCS
c) the overhead in insurance, workers comp, advertising, etc
Nor do some of them really care.. if a simple removal they just want it done.. and forget about the rest of the crap.
TC57,
perception is that many realize we do a dangerous job & deserve paid well for it, but: when certain companies like Davey, Bartlett & Asplundh bid a job @ $3600.00& complete the job in a day.......Mr & Mrs Home owner feel robbed!! especially when relatives of theirs hire me to do a similar job at 1/2 the price & it only takes lil ole me a day to do it!!!
perception will change & so will our trade (for the better) when jobs are created putting individuals back into their perspective job fields.........then we are all gonna hear from our customers: "I use to do tree work"
more than regulation this is what I hope for!!!
LXT...................
perception is that many realize we do a dangerous job & deserve paid well for it, but: when certain companies like Davey, Bartlett & Asplundh bid a job @ $3600.00& complete the job in a day.......Mr & Mrs Home owner feel robbed!! especially when relatives of theirs hire me to do a similar job at 1/2 the price & it only takes lil ole me a day to do it!!!
perception will change & so will our trade (for the better) when jobs are created putting individuals back into their perspective job fields.........then we are all gonna hear from our customers: "I use to do tree work"
more than regulation this is what I hope for!!!
LXT...................
TreeClimber57
Addicted to ArboristSite
That is also true.
Now one might ask how big the job is.. as the companies mentioned do have considerable resources and should be able to do a lot in a day. Having said that you further qualify it by saying that you could do similar job in same time frame.
So.. this then makes one wonder..
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