Revolutionary?....I think so for trainees

[treevet]

I see this new ZigZag rig as the key that opens the door to more training and assessment of potential of prospective climbers. Get them up in the top on SRT or whatever way but when they get up there they can hook up this system they have brought up pre installed and toss it over a limb and go to work without you wincing at whether or not they have tied in right or will run a suspect hitch.

You have a young kid with no body fat and strength to handle anything and athletic and wants to learn to climb unafraid of heights. I think this may be the answer to training until they want to move to something that may be more sophisticated to them. I am getting one tomorrow and will know more after I try it. Many seem very happy with it.

Petzl Zig Zag Shop Demo - YouTube

View attachment 285249

 

[mattfr12]

I've thought about a spider jack because the smooth shackles on cranes offer little resistance so my knot always slips while on the hook then in the tree it's to tight over a branch. Figured it might be more consistent with one of those.

 

[imagineero]

There's no fast track to being a good climber. Proper skills start on the ground - proper saw handling, tension and compression, knots, rigging, running ropes. understanding wood and how to work a tree. It takes time. Once you've mastered all the basic skills on the ground, you start with basic climbs. Spiking palms, simple take downs with no targets around. As you build your confidence and experience, you move into taller, but still fairly basic trees. Working on your rigging, and applying different cuts in the tree. By that time, your knowledge of species, seasons, and trim patterns may have evolved somewhat, and you can start on basic spikeless trimming work. From there you move on to move complex rigging and takedowns, etc etc.

If someone hasn't mastered all those basics, they've no business being in a tree. If you can't tie, dress, and set at least one hitch, stay on the ground.

Shaun

 

[treevet]

I don't agree with you. How many employees do you have? How long have you been running your own business. That ridiculous description of your set up on your VT thread is absurdly and unnecessarily complicated, especially for the new guy. Don't agree to start the guy on spikes either. How many have you taught?

This mechanical prussik gets them started. They don't have to have been a groundie but it helps but not a deal clincher in my opinion. Teach em the bowline/running bowline, some basic cuts, put em supervised on the wood pile for a while, let em do a little ground and mix in some low and slow climbing....with this ZigZag.

The biggest negs to starting a new climber in a small biz is worry of their ability to set up a hitch repeatedly and taking the time to monitor every move while still making some money. This eliminates both those worries given you have taught them basic pruning and maybe taken a few trips up in the tree with them. Let them get in to the removals later after they get an appreciation for trees and they can make money now instead of hating how slow they are on TD's.

 

[2treeornot2tree]

I see this new ZigZag rig as the key that opens the door to more training and assessment of potential of prospective climbers. Get them up in the top on SRT or whatever way but when they get up there they can hook up this system they have brought up pre installed and toss it over a limb and go to work without you wincing at whether or not they have tied in right or will run a suspect hitch.

You have a young kid with no body fat and strength to handle anything and athletic and wants to learn to climb unafraid of heights. I think this may be the answer to training until they want to move to something that may be more sophisticated to them. I am getting one tomorrow and will know more after I try it. Many seem very happy with it.

Petzl Zig Zag Shop Demo - YouTube

View attachment 285249

How are you getting one tomorrow? thought they were on back order everywhere.

 

[Pelorus]

Nice to see you here! Tree et, and I'm enjoying this thread.
Good points of view being expressed on both sides.
I own both a ZigZag and a Hitchhiker. The hitchhiker is getting used more (removals; conifers), but I'm glad I purchased both.

 

[treevet]

If they can't tie the hitch, they should be on the ground, as re-tying in the tree is standard operating procedure. The system shown may have to be moved around, anyway. I don't believe which hitch is used is as important as long as it's used and tied correctly. A much simpler system than the zig zag would be better. It's about learning balance and foreseeing dangerous swings, using a chainsaw in the air, what to cut once you're up there and not doing damage to the property below. Not necessary in that order.

Again, I disagree....dangerous swings...doing damage to property below...you are describing a removal. My premise is get them up there doing some basic pruning which you can sell the schit out of, you can begin making money immediately with them with no injury or damage issues...while they learn.

Retying is not that important imo when first starting but with a camming lanyard and no splice on the climbing line, this can be re installed easily from the aerial end of the climb line in the tree just like a re tie.

The biggest block in growing your small tree service, which most of us have, is lack of climbers in the busy season. You can't take them right to dangerous removals (injury and damage worries) and you cannot slow to a snail's pace and suffer through their inept attempts at TD's while the lot star TD guy (maybe you) teaches or grounds. With a whole yard of pruning and a gm...you can after a while, just leave em alone and go make money elsewhere. Hey if you teach em to be a TD star, they gonna motor off on their own or some other tree co (treeco that will pay more cause they don't have a TD guy.

How does it get more simple than this ZigZag (or safe)?

 

[treevet]

How are you getting one tomorrow? thought they were on back order everywhere.

My man Luke said he's sending me one and when he says something you can take it to the bank.

 

[treevet]

Nice to see you here! Tree vet, and I'm enjoying this thread.
Good points of view being expressed on both sides.
I own both a ZigZag and a Hitchhiker. The hitchhiker is getting used more (removals; conifers), but I'm glad I purchased both.

I been climbing on a distal and hitchlimber for a few years and occassionally on the srt thing (RW) but I don't like to have the anchor line to worry about and can go up a drt on my ascentree and couple of pantins if not handwalking up the lines. I just really see this thing for training new guys but I may just fall for it myself.

 

[treevet]

Climbing to the tips when pruning exposes the climber to swings.

this ain't rocket science, just common sense is needed.

Any time limbs are cut on a tree there is a possibility of doing damage to property below.

that's just not true

 

[treevet]

go take a nap and come back

 

[treevet]

Just received it and very cool set up. Today a rainer here so set it up on my lat machine and it is smooth as silk and feathery responsive. I think you could do what we used to call a Miller jump out of a 100 ' oak (used to race to ground and loser buys the beer) and stop on a dime. No sit back, you can feed line straight through it when ascending. Almost Rolex like in construction...absolutely love it. And just as I thought...you can just feed the working end of the cl line thru it to set up or re tie, but a splice won't be going thru it. Who needs it tho.

 

[Blakesmaster]

I'm hesitant to recommend expensive toys and gear for a new climber. This could easily send them down a dead end road where gadgets and gizmos rule, but don't get the job done. There are forums filled with those types of climbers. Teach them the most basic and let their own interest in the profession spur them on to the range of techniques out there. I'm with you on pruning first. Way less chance of injury/property damage and forces the climber to trust their rope and saddle, not their spikes.

 

[TreeAce]

I just got my ZZ and it looks just as sweet as they did in Baltimore last fall. i will try it out as soon as I get my new rope (cougar blue) to go with it. I had bought Vortex and thought better of it for use in the ZZ and returned it. As for new climbers using the ZZ, I would say no. Rope n saddle first , no spurs. Handsaw then chainsaw. As for worrying about knot tying, I make a guy tie a taughtline behind his back and then one handed while a couple feet off the ground. Then a blakes or whatever. I have a new climber for this year who still climbs on a closed system with a knut (?) I think . And he is a young guy so I was kinda surprised. I showed some goodies I have in my kit and his eyes lit up. I figure it should be a good sign. Now let me ask this....esp with a young man ( this guys 24 and physically fit) do i insist that he is skilled in foot locking (I am not) before giving him a pantin? He would be better off in my opinion to know foot locking but who would really learn it when theres a pantin? OR you could say who would NEED it when theres a pantin. Of course gadets get lost,broken,and forgot at the shop sometimes so..... OR how about this one....do you let a new climber use a wraptor?

 

[treevet]

I'm hesitant to recommend expensive toys and gear for a new climber. This could easily send them down a dead end road where gadgets and gizmos rule, but don't get the job done. There are forums filled with those types of climbers. Teach them the most basic and let their own interest in the profession spur them on to the range of techniques out there. I'm with you on pruning first. Way less chance of injury/property damage and forces the climber to trust their rope and saddle, not their spikes.

Consider this...the gadget is used by them and NOT owned by them. The biggest shock I have found the breakaway guy has when he leaves me for greener pastures is the sudden realization that this job is a massively more difficult without all the tools that fit every niche that I OWN and they don't get to use anymore.

You train the guy on the ZZ, he is not liable to buy his own at $275.

This thing is so smooth IMO because of the rope on metal effect as opposed to the rope on rope of the traditional system's friction. An analogy would be the porty compared to the old school wrap around the tree.

 

[treevet]

I just got my ZZ and it looks just as sweet as they did in Baltimore last fall. i will try it out as soon as I get my new rope (cougar blue) to go with it. I had bought Vortex and thought better of it for use in the ZZ and returned it. As for new climbers using the ZZ, I would say no. Rope n saddle first , no spurs. Handsaw then chainsaw. As for worrying about knot tying, I make a guy tie a taughtline behind his back and then one handed while a couple feet off the ground. Then a blakes or whatever. I have a new climber for this year who still climbs on a closed system with a knut (?) I think . And he is a young guy so I was kinda surprised. I showed some goodies I have in my kit and his eyes lit up. I figure it should be a good sign. Now let me ask this....esp with a young man ( this guys 24 and physically fit) do i insist that he is skilled in foot locking (I am not) before giving him a pantin? He would be better off in my opinion to know foot locking but who would really learn it when theres a pantin? OR you could say who would NEED it when theres a pantin. Of course gadets get lost,broken,and forgot at the shop sometimes so..... OR how about this one....do you let a new climber use a wraptor?

I see the taughtline and Blakes as dinosaurs because they are not able to be slack tended and therefore add that dimension to danger to the new guy. Not the case with this.

New guys won't be using my Wraptor...no way! Pantins...and ascendtree...sure.

 

[Blakesmaster]

Consider this...the gadget is used by them and NOT owned by them. The biggest shock I have found the breakaway guy has when he leaves me for greener pastures is the sudden realization that this job is a massively more difficult without all the tools that fit every niche that I OWN and they don't get to use anymore.

You train the guy on the ZZ, he is not liable to buy his own at $275.

This thing is so smooth IMO because of the rope on metal effect as opposed to the rope on rope of the traditional system's friction. An analogy would be the porty compared to the old school wrap around the tree.

If your goal is to train a climber that can only work with the tools and parameters you provide then you might have a bit of a start on it. But there are a lot of other bases to be covered in that field if that's the game you are playing.

 

[treevet]

If your goal is to train a climber that can only work with the tools and parameters you provide then you might have a bit of a start on it. But there are a lot of other bases to be covered in that field if that's the game you are playing.

game? don't understand that comment.

 

[lxt]

So you`re thinking of having an in-experienced climber use this ZZ system so there are no worries in regard to him tying a proper friction hitch & this is going to speed him up in the department of takedowns?

First off no gadget or "tool" is gonna make a guy a good climber, let alone provide him knowledge aloft to do what is right, you put an in-experienced guy up there with this ZZ you better prepare for property damage!! if he/she cant tie knots on the ground or run a saw proficiently then you`re gonna have problems, they should be a good groundie before becoming a climber.

Whats scary is someone thinking to teach a newbie in a "large" removal by having him use this thing, all for the sake of speed & worry of tying a knot properly, Wow..........!


LXT..........

 

[joezilla11]

im new to climbing but can i add a thought from a new guys perspective? obviously there are different opinions and training methods and im not trying to step out of my boundaries... but what about the idea that if a new guy learns and gets comfortable on a cool new gizmo that he may not want to go backwards after that and start over and learn the basics, that is if he can perform the same tasks on the gizmo. He may learn the basics but might not be motivated enough to slow back down and really practice and implement it after coming from an easier/advanced way. when i first learned how to rappel the instructors had us on a mechanical device similar to a spiderjack. easy going and guys had a great time but then going to hitches and figure 8s guys were nervous, reluctant, and you could tell confidence went way down. I think if a guy is motivated enough to learn how to climb that he will learn either way, but in my experience i found it helpful to have the basics to build off of. it may not be as cost effective to you but may be in his best interest. i think there is a difference in training someone just to make you money, and training somone to be well versed in their field of work. not that its a concern to you but what if the climber leaves for reasons other than what you stated or going on his own, or if he moves etc. now there is an experienced climber who may not be able to work because he doesnt have the new toys? just my thought dont shoo me away as i have found all your posts very helpful! im just trying to give some perspective