Root Girdling

[syncom2]

Early this spring I decided I had served enough “time” with a Chinese Elm growing in my lawn so I whacked it off about a four feet high from the ground. The remaining stump at this height measured about five inches in diameter. In and around this remaining stump, within a circular distance of about 36 inches, I planted 3 Eastern Redbud trees that were in five gallon pots when I purchased them. I had to remove some minor existing roots from the Chinese Elm in order to have the Redbuds planted as close to, and as deep as necessary. What I failed to do as they were being planted was to make sure that the roots of the Redbud trees (which are about 5-6 feet tall) had not already started to encircle themselves in rooting zone. I’m pretty sure they are in that condition, but then again I really do not know ‘cos I have no idea how long they had been growing in this environment. After doing some recent reading about root girdling effects… and after having a certified Arborist check out some of my other 20 – 25 year old trees that are not doing all that well, which he felt were the direct result of having severe root girdling problems of their own (another certified Arborist with an airspade at his disposal is to check as many trees as possible in a 8 hour day for me - in a few weeks…), my question is this; Being we are just now going into the hottest and usually the driest portion of the year, should I pull this soil away from the roots of the Redbuds to see if there is a potential problem, now, or would it be wiser of me to wait until the leaves have dropped late this fall and do the investigative excavation? It may be that I may need to totally remove the three Redbuds, go in… hack-away and dig out the old Chinese Elm stump… and as many old roots from the Elm as possible, in order to give the Redbud roots enough growing space, now… and not forcing them to wait for the old roots to decompose for this growing media.
Suggestions and/or comments??
mb

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Your on the right track. If you can afford 8 hours of airspade work, get a stump grinder in on the little elm.

Waiting for fall would be a good idea, then the tree can have some chance of regrowing hte roots that you disturbed.

Maybe have the guy with the air tool give a hand on the excavation on the root ballls.

However you do it, unwind the small roots and plant them out in trenches radiating form the trunk.

Here is some light reading on the subject.

http://home.wi.rr.com/sanbornstrees/on stem girdling roots.doc

 

[syncom2]

John Paul…
Appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post. I believe I’ll do as you have reinforced my thoughts and ideas - concerning the trio of Redbud trees. Not sure what got into me that Spring day… as to why I planted ‘em as I did. The kicker was… I had read some in the past about root girdling, but went ahead and tossed that information right out the window for that particular planting day!! It wasn’t until after my Arborist (first time visit) had left my property that evening before it dawned on me that I just made another mess with the Redbuds that I’d hafta deal with down the road! Oh well…
Hey… with me never having been exposed to anyone doing any of this air-spading work, maybe you can enlighten me on what I can expect? I realize now I shooda asked the consulting Arborist that made this suggestion many more questions than I managed to squeeze in on his brief visit. It was just that I had so much ground I wanted to cover with him… that I didn’t ask, or didn’t think to ask any in-depth questions about this particular process.
Questions as;
I would imagine that blowing a high amount (and volume) of air pressure around the roots would have the soil flying out in most all directions. I was wondering, would the standard practice be that they drape the ground area surrounding the tree so it’d be easier on the back-filling process?
I wouldn’t think making the area muddy would be very appreciated, but in order to speedy up the process some, one would want the soil surrounding the roots kinda damp… maybe???
I suppose this might vary greatly between trees, you know, as each tree’s need(s) would have to be addressed individually in order to rectify the tree’s problem, but I wonder how much time it usually takes (averages) to perform such a task on a “per tree” basis? Being I will be paying over a dollar a minute for the service, I’m kinda wondering how many trees I’ll hafta leave left untouched by the end of the workday. I guess only time will tell that story… eh?!?
By the way… from talking with the Arborist that I had come out to my residence, I am the one to blame for not planting them correctly in the first place… or should say, ensuring that they were planted correctly. You see, when I set the trees in their holes, I had the top of the root ball 4 – 6 inches elevated above the surrounding ground, but where I failed is that I did not dig down in the soil to see where the tree’s flare actually was located. All along I had always assumed that, we, as customers of the nursery, were to plant the tree as nearly as possibly as how it had been growing in their field. My Arborist said that some of the nurseries in our surrounding area plant the trees much too deeply in the first place, they do this so they will not fall over as easily in their planting beds. I was clueless to this practice, but have been ever-so wised up on what to look for now! Sooooo needless to say, I have some serious problems up in the limbs… and on the trunks of many of my trees that have developed over the years… with them steadily becoming worse as they age. Once it was pointed out to me how un-symmetrical many of the tree’s flare were… “WOW!!” is all I could say! Of course, not only were many of them probably planted too deeply ‘cos of this hidden flare thing, but possibly there may have been a rope left around the root ball… a wire handling cage that maybe messed things up over the years… even tho I always tried to cut the wire basket away as much as possible. Who knows…
I pray things will soon be turned around so they’ll all be smiling toward heaven here in the future!
And hey, thanks again!

mb

 

[Dan F]

"I planted 3 Eastern Redbud trees that were in five gallon pots when I purchased them "

A little forewarning: potted trees can be a little hard to work with when trying to find the flare. The root system is usually a solid mass of small fibrous roots that make it hard to remove the soil needed. Yet another reason I'm leaning against a pot-in-pot operation if I ever start my own nursery.

When I'm in the middle of a "rip-and-tear" removal before we install an new landscape, it usually is very easy to tell which shrubs were potted, as the root system is usually still in a perfect cylindrical shape. This is what your tree roots would eventually look like if you didn't unwind the roots.

If you didn't "tease" any roots before you planted the redbuds they should pop out of the ground fairly easily this fall. Do what you need to do to find the flare and unwind whatever roots you need to. Another season of growth won't (at least it shouldn't) adversely affect them at this age if you dig them back up this fall.

When you are done unwinding and removing soil, stick them back in the same holes, the roots will find their way around the old elm roots.

" I would imagine that blowing a high amount (and volume) of air pressure around the roots would have the soil flying out in most all directions. I was wondering, would the standard practice be that they drape the ground area surrounding the tree so it?d be easier on the back-filling process? "

I am nowhere near an expert on this, as I've only been involved with a similar situation once. That being said, most likely something will be set up to catch the soil. If the trees are planted too deep, then I have to wonder if the soil will be put back in place after the necessary roots are cut?

"in order to speedy up the process some, one would want the soil surrounding the roots kinda damp? maybe???"

I would have to say that unless you have had no rain in the last 3-4 weeks and the ground is rock hard, it is probably fine. Check with the guy doing the work though to see what he prefers. I would think that too much water would be more of a hindrance than anything.

"some of the nurseries in our surrounding area plant the trees much too deeply in the first place, they do this so they will not fall over as easily in their planting beds."

It's not just your area. It happens all over. It is an industry-wide problem. See the thread at http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9216 for more comments on this topic.

"Once it was pointed out to me how un-symmetrical many of the tree?s flare were? ?WOW!!? is all I could say! "

Girdling roots have become a major problem, IMNSHO. I have lost count of how many I have removed this year alone. Roots that were either girdling or roots that eventually would have been. Most times I didn't set out to find them either. I usually find them when I am removing soil to find the flare on a root ball, or if I'm removing excess mulch before we spread new mulch. If I find a flat spot on 5-6" or larger tree, I'll usually dig a little deeper, and lo and behold, most of the time there is a girdling root(s). I just wish I'd had a camera the day I planted the Japanese Maple with 2 roots forming a nearly perfect box around the trunk....


Dan

 

[syncom2]

Dan,
I appreciate your shared helpful notes of supporting interest as well.
You know, it was kinda funny, but maybe not so much after all… Speakin' of - as the arborist I contacted was walking up to the first tree I wanted him to examine, he immediately asked me if I had purchased my tree from so & so nursery and/or from so & so nursery. Of course I confirmed him to be correct with both dropped names. He went on to tell me that he had personally went to each nursery and attempted to convey to those in command what he had been finding out in the consumer field, from the very same landscape material that they had supplied his clientele. Of course I am referring to the fact that the majority of trees had been planted too deeply from the get-to, at their own nursery site… and hence, was being planted much too deep at their consumer's site. Well… I guess his (arborist) shared words to both nurseries were not too well received… but the proof is in the pudding… so ‘they’ say! And the kicker is… it’s those idiots like me that keeps ‘em in business doing what they’re doing! ‘Cos whadda we do? Well… we march right on back there for another lickin’ when our first plant material bites the dust! So maybe they really don’t wanna face the truth of the expert arborist is telling ‘em cause it makes good (???) business sense for some nursery folks to rape their customers… ‘cos they know that sooner or later there’s a darn good chance their first purchase will wilt as it chokes itself to death!
Well anyway, like I earlier stated, I hope to see if we can salvage some of the many ‘wrongs’ that I failed to recognize ‘cos of my ignorance.
Again, thanks for the sought-for feedback guys and take care!
mb

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I've been saying for years that we need some disgruntled customers, upset with the early decline of their landscape to sue the nurseries and installers so that some court presidance can be set.

Get a few of them with a Cost of Cure replacement verdict and maybe they will change their evil ways.

Just gotta find some wealthy ones though.

I will sometimes use a tarp when air excavating, mostly I will use a rake and shovel, after mixing in some organics.

If the tree is very deep then some spoil dirt will be left over to toss in the flowe beds or spread in low spots. There is apporximatly a 30% loss of soil moved due to fine particle drift, so sometimes you need to add some to the backfill.

Some soil moisture is needed, but it differes between soil types, so maybe call and ask the guy who will be doing it if he wants you to water a few days prior. If it has been dry that is.

 

[syncom2]

Hello guys,
Well… while I was off at work my son received a call early this morning saying this was the day that my contracted arborist, with stout air compressor, was going to show up. This work was suppose to have taken place next week, but… oh well! Anyway, I took a little extra long lunch break today just to touch base and to see how the process was working.
Unfortunately it’s beginning to look as if nearly every tree I planted was on the way too deep side. In eight hours he air-spaded a White Oak, Red Oak, Purple Ash, Red Rivers Beech and a Dawn Redwood. Each tree’s flare was down some 4 – 6 inches below where I was told to hold the level to when they were purchased some 12 – 14 years ago. Now I’ll hafta figure out what I’m going to do with a yard full of trees that look as if they’ve been planted in some silly ole sinkhole or something! I had always mulched the trees… and unless I do some drastic grade changing in those immediate vicinities, there’s just no room for any 2” layer of mulch in this sunken pit! And of course… I don’t think any serious re-grading would be such a swift idea - being I’m sure I’d be in the roots of the trees at hardly any downward depth… correct?
Anyway…
Mr. contracted arborist is suppose to return tomorrow and see how many more he can unearth for me in another eight hour period. Not sure what I’ll do after that ‘cos spending some $65.00 per hour is a little more than what’s in the skinny piggy bank… if ya know what I mean. And being I have somewhere ‘round 30 trees or so that need tended to… not lookin’ too promising to finish this project anytime soon
Well… just wanted to bring you up to date on what’s been going on in my front yard.
Thanks for listening!
mb

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Did your guy find any stem girdling roots, and did he work on them?
What is taking so long? Four or five trees in eight hours seems like very slow going, although $65 an hour is a very low rate. The actual air spade work should only take 10 minutes, maybe up to a half an hour on a complicated tree, at least that's been my experience. The root trimming can take some time, but I can't imagine spending more than an hour on a tree. I would be very interested in knowing what is taking so long.
If there are going to be funny looking dishes around the tree, I would normally use the spade to blend the grade in, but if it's going to take so long, maybe you need to go to plan B.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I agree with Mike, I've not had a basal exam that took more then an hour, and for a 12-14 year old tree? My longest basal exams were more on the order of +150 y/o elms.

Cutting through root mat may be a problem, but 1:40 hours per tree leaves me uncomfortable.

I would dish out the tree wells and ill thme with that big fat bark chip that rots slowly, then you can clean the wells out every 3-4 years and remove any new roots, get soil that has filtered down out and maybe expand the pits as needed.

 

[syncom2]

If possible, I will attempt to send a picture or two that my son took of the Chestnut he worked on today. Not only is there rooting problems that he's encountered with each and every tree thus far, but the wire basket(s) that have FAILED to rust away (as I was told they would, but didn't know we were talkin' about centuries! I shooda cut ‘em down at least to the bottom of the root ball… instead of whacking at them just as deep as I could reach down the sides - as they were sitting in the hole. My bad!!) has really been slowing the process down. That's my saying (assumption), not mr. arborist feller telling me that. Oh, there's been some trees that haven't really been that bad, but still needed some 'adjusting' of their footing. I believe he got six more untangled today. Let's see... there was a Shingle Oak, Chestnut, Washington Hawthorn, Skyline Locust, Ginko, White Swamp Oak. Still lots more to go... but at least some of the mess is finally beginning to unravel itself... no pun intended!
mb

PS...
Well, the picture file is too big so I reckon I can't send it along. Sorry!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

You can resize the oicture in a photo program, just make sure it saves as a .jpg. In corel you need to export it or it willl save as a proprietary extention.

My responce to the rusting of baskets statement is that archaeologists still dig up wire from the Revelutionary War.


So who is the arbo with the air tool? Have you told him about this site?

 

[syncom2]

Thought I'd give it 'nother whirl in sending out a picture of the
uncovered root system of the Horsechestnut.
mb

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Yeah there is some work there.

The tree looks like it can live a few more decades, I think it has been robbed of a full life span.

 

[geofore]

wire

Last year I did take out a few trees that had been planted about 14 years ago and every tree that was planted will have to come out and be replaced, wire baskets on all of the trees are killing the roots now. I expect this homeowner to lose all 30 trees over the next 3 years. The homeowner was told the wire would rust away, it will NOT! You see a decline in the trees for no apparent reason then the bugs attack the trees then you get a call to come replace the trees and find out they all have wire baskets cutting the roots. while the wire baskets are nice to hold the rootballs they have to come off to plant the trees or you lose the tree in 10-15 years. It's a shame to see this but it's out there and there are still guys out there telling costomers it's ok to leave the wire on because it will rust away. I'd say it's not that they don't know better but that they are too lazy to cut it off before planting or they forgot to bring the bolt cutters the day they planted and didn't want to take the time to go get a pair of cutters.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Seems to be that it is the slap dash installer who has high failure rates. Tehey tell the client that twine should stay on a year, because it is easier to replace if the install fails

So you work with guy who seems to expect his work to fail????

 

[Dan F]

This may open a whole 'nother can of worms, but here goes...

On the current subject, assuming that with a B&B tree the wire basket doesn't ever rust away; bare root trees are not practical 9 months out of the year; and potted trees have root systems that are too dense and not easy to fix root problems before planting. What (taking all the aforementioned into consideration) is the best type to plant, at least in a business situation?

Would it be a field potted tree? How often would the pot (usuallly a dense fiber material) get removed? Around here, you can't hardly find field potted material.

A B&B tree that had the basket and burlap removed? I know this is the right answer, but if the basket and burlap was removed, the integrity of the ball fails, not to mention the increased need for staking. It is very hard to remove the basket before the tree is placed into the hole and still keep the ball intact. Especially on bigger stock.

Tell all clients that tree planting will not be done until the trees are dormant and then they will be bare root? That simply is not practical, and business will be lost... And staking would still be needed.

I know staking isn't necessarily a BAD thing, I just try to avoid it as much as possible (not 'cause I'm lazy!) to let the tree stabilize itself on its own.

???????

Which is the lesser evil? Thoughts, opinions? I know you all won't let me down!


Dan

 

[DadF]

You know what my reply will be-use the biggest tree spade you can find and direct plant making sure that the tree was planted at the right depth to start. By the way, one of our local established landscape companies still doesn't understand what planting at the right depth means, 'cause they told my one of my mowing clients that the trees that they planted for her (that I have dug down 6" and found no root flare yet!)were "planted perfectly" . Must have meant that the mulch ring was in a perfect circle-along with the mulch that was 3" deep up on the bark. Unfortunately they also have a couple of "Certified Arborist" that are saying that is the right way to plant trees. Is there any way to revoke certifications!?!?!?

 

[geofore]

B&B

Because yuppies want instant trees,10'-20' tall installed they get Basket and Burlap. You'd think they wanted new rugs also from the looks of some of the lawns, remove old turf and topsoil to place sod on hardpan and add sprinklers too (topsoil gone and not enough organic material to retain moisture). You can't talk them into smaller trees with less root problems all around, they want instant, not right, instant. Drives me nuts.

They don't have time,tree time, to wait for the smaller trees to mature and grow. They are in a hurry and they want the trees in the landscape in a hurry. They get B&B from some instant tree planters and call you when the the trees die from root entanglement. Process starts all over again because they want more instant trees to replace the old (few years)dead instant trees. To do it right takes time, tree time, and you charge too much to do it right in their mind. Fast is a way of life for them and paying to have it done right is out of the question. They are paying for their yuppie address and yuppie lifestyle and want yuppie tree work.

It doesn't have to be that way but,"Can you have the trees in on tuesday for the party is friday and I want the place to look good?" How many of these yuppies will be at the same address for the next 25 years it takes to work the trees into shape? NOT many. They want green landscapes today but don't want to pay the green to have it done right. I ramble, I'll stop here.

 

[Dan F]

Ok, for those of us not fortunate enough to be able to afford a large tree spade (i.e. market is not there for it and we don't work for a university!), and can convince the client to go with a smaller tree (most people around here don't want to pay for a larger tree anyway- we're lucky if they want to pay for one at all! But that's another long story in itself), what is the better option, if there is one?

The fact still remains that 95% or better of the trees we get at work have root problems, be it they were planted too deeply and/or have circling roots. If they are potted (or have been at any point in time) they ALWAYS have circling roots, and potted trees are hard to fix the roots on.

I guess, deep down, the reason I am asking for opinions (not just for work purposes) is there is a good chance I will start growing trees on my property to sell wholesale. I plan on planting and pruning them correctly and marketing them as such. However, I don't know whether I should B&B them, or pot them when they are dug. I know I don't want to do pot in pot for various reasons.

More thoughts?


Dan

 

[geofore]

more thoughts

http//hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/pruning/ quite a bit to read but there is good information there.