Rope pulling training?

[treeman82]

Had a little boo-boo today while doing a job. Dropped a 40 foot white pine on a deck and did some damage. There was a rope set in the tree, and it held. I told my groundie who was to be pulling the tree over that I felt we should put the truck on it. Guy told me he had it. He and I have pulled over some BIG ones before with a bunch of back lean... actually we had pulled over a bunch of 90' tulips at this same property a few years back between the house and a sugar maple that the owner wants to save. No problems to speak of. I asked if he wanted to put a come-along on the line just for some extra pull. No, he had it. Well when the tree started to come over... it wound up about 30* to where I wanted it to go... puttig it on top of the deck.. wrecked a railing (just some 2x6PT got chipped) dented the gutter, and did some stupid other damage... wrecked a charcoal grill, and an expensive tarp. At least he was able to keep it off of the pool.

I know it sounds dumb... but how can I go about teaching people how to pull on a rope without having to do it before EVERY job, and not having to flat out insult them?

I mean somebody tells me to pull a rope and I put my weight into it... if I don't think I can do it... I'll tell them I don't think I can do it alone.

 

[woodchux]

Dont let anyone else's laziness or overconfidence compromise your safety ... You make the call stick with you plan.

 

[reachtreeservi]

I dunno, Treeman. Just about all of us have the same problem with our groundies.
I can tell you, I rig alot of come-alongs, and cut and rig a lot of small peices. It's always better to err on the safe side.

Once they cause damage to a customers property, they lose the right to tell me anything. After that, I tell them everything.
they want to argue, I take'm back to the house or their truck.

Still at the end of the day, everything that happens.... is the owners fault.

I know, I'm the owner.

 

[Bigus Termitius]

How did he have hold of it?

What exactly went wrong?

How'd ya lose 30*? Loose the hinge?

I always bring the end of the rope around the old backside and wrap the end around the rope longways a couple of times, hang on, and use my whole body kinda like anchor man in a tug of war.

It's safe, if something were to go wrong I can just let go and it all comes apart. Otherwise it's pretty solid, haven't had a problem yet.

Tis true though, a man has to know his limitations. lesson learned. Glad to hear no one was hurt.

 

[teamtree]

Teaching them is hard to do. I try to make it fool proof as much as possible and make it easy for them. I try to assure them they can do what (pulling hard) it takes rather than get there assurance. It is still tough once they start pulling and the tree starts to go in the wrong direction....it is all over but the crying...no one person can hold a moving tree. That is why I try to use a truck over a person any day...even if it takes extra rope.

I have to say that if you let him make the decision for you, then you have to take responsibility. Does he share in the profits? Losses?

Who was cutting the tree? Sounds like there may have been a problem with the hinge or set up. At any rate, if it is your job, it is your responsibility....why did you not insist on a truck or pulley?

Not trying to rag on you cause I have tried to blame stuff on my help many times but at the end of the day, it all comes back to the boss or owner.

 

[clearance]

Maybe it was you, were your cuts good and accurate?
Did you leave more holding wood on the off lean side to compensate?
Did you leave enough holding wood in general?
Was your undercut in the right direction to offset the lean?

I would like to hear his story, maybe it differs from yours. In any case, no one was hurt, thats what really matters.

 

[(WLL)]

from what your telling us ,to me it sounds like its the cutters fault. if the tree had a back lean and it STIHL went in the direction it was pulled it must be the cutters fault. it don't matter what is pulling the tree over as long as it goes over with the pull,the drop will only be as accurate as its notch if done correctly. how the heck do you have 3000 posts and only 2 green rep points?:jawdrop:

 

[Dadatwins]

A lot of variables, how high was the rope? how far away was the pull? did the puller slack off as the tree came over? gust of wind? bad notch? lot of questions to ask but they all have to be accounted for before the saw is started. If there is any question about a leaner I will always opt on the come-along or extra pull rope, even have some wedges ready. Sorry the flame but blaming the groundie for a bad pull sounds more like there was a bad plan from the start. You are the owner and should be prepared to take the extra steps for the 'just in case'. Glad no one was hurt.

 

[Dadatwins]

I always bring the end of the rope around the old backside and wrap the end around the rope longways a couple of times, hang on, and use my whole body kinda like anchor man in a tug of war.

It's safe, if something were to go wrong I can just let go and it all comes apart. Otherwise it's pretty solid, haven't had a problem yet.

This is not safe in my opinion. You should never wrap any part of the rope around any part of your body even as an anchor when dealing with tree work. Have seen people get a whale of a rope burn and whiplash from the tree going the wrong way and the groundie spinning like a top trying to get away. Keep the rope in front of you hold it with both hands. keep all the extra rope in front of you also. If something goes wrong drop the rope and step back. Much safer IMHO.

 

[BC WetCoast]

It sounds like you and your groundie have worked together for a while (maybe even years off and on) so you should know his tendencies. Does he always overstate his abilities? Does he have the judgement to decide whether he can handle the tree or need help?

Whenever I'm grounding and have to pull a tree or top, I will usually put in a poor man's come along (or 3 to 1). I need all the help I can get.

And because I have some arthritis in my hands, I can't grip a rope that well (fingers wont bend properly) so I put a half hitch slip knot or figure 8 in the bight in the rope and pull against that.

 

[Ekka]

how the heck do you have 3000 posts and only 2 green rep points?:jawdrop:

LOL, as if that's some score of ability!

If ya lost it a 30degrees then there's likely other factors at play here.

What about wind, weighting, hinge, wing cuts, slope of land, decay etc.

 

[newb]

If we have to pull over a tree, minimum fiddle block, but more often than not GRCS. I haven't had to many trees argue with the GRCS. Pete

 

[treeman82]

There WERE other mitigating factors here... but nothing that a truck couldn't have taken care of.

1) Not much hinge wood.
2) Back lean
3) Side lean - this concerned me the most.
4) Another pine to get around.

A truck would have pulled it right in there.

I'm not gonna argue that this wasn't my fault... because as they say "The buck stops here" and anything that happens on my watch is my fault whether I was using the saw, or pulling the rope, or doing nothing.

As for my guy... he doesn't care, and he did get paid for the day. In all honesty I should really just get rid of him. I don't know why I haven't already??? guy hit me 2 times last year (once in the head with a piece of brush which wasn't allowed to run, and shock loaded another piece.. I thought I broke a rib.). This year he gave me other troubles... the house yesterday, and then almost hit me a few months ago on another job with a top.

 

[Dadatwins]

I am not a fan of pulling with a truck either, you can easily pull to hard and snap a tree or break a rope at the worst possible time. Ok to use it as an anchor point with a few pullies, but I really do not like using it as the pull device. Sure I have done it but with a very capable driver, clear view of the pull, and lot of communication. As for your groundie it sounds like some additional training is needed or time to start over. Don't wait until something serious happens, worse than some property damage, to realize this is not working out.

 

[clearance]

There WERE other mitigating factors here... but nothing that a truck couldn't have taken care of.

1) Not much hinge wood.
2) Back lean
3) Side lean - this concerned me the most.
4) Another pine to get around.

A truck would have pulled it right in there.

I'm not gonna argue that this wasn't my fault... because as they say "The buck stops here" and anything that happens on my watch is my fault whether I was using the saw, or pulling the rope, or doing nothing.

As for my guy... he doesn't care, and he did get paid for the day. In all honesty I should really just get rid of him. I don't know why I haven't already??? guy hit me 2 times last year (once in the head with a piece of brush which wasn't allowed to run, and shock loaded another piece.. I thought I broke a rib.). This year he gave me other troubles... the house yesterday, and then almost hit me a few months ago on another job with a top.

You stated out blaming the groundsman, called your thread "rope pullling school". Now you change your tune. I have cut down more pines than I can remember, most were pulled over by hand, a few with a Tirfor and a few with a truck. And your tree was only 40' tall, lame, very lame, it was your fault, I'll bet my left nut.

 

[RedlineIt]

On a straight pull, I've never considered a groundies pulling ability as more than a really big wedge. On a straight pull, once it's going over, it is not up to the groundie to get it where I want, that control is down to my hinge.

Once the tree is coming over (thanks to my groundie) the top of the tree is falling at 32 feet per second per second acceleraton, minus air resistance, minus hinge friction.

I'm no math genius, but I'm figuring the groundie has to take up something like 10' of rope per second to redirect a dinky 40' fall. I can't take up 10' of rope per second and achieve control, doubt that anyone can, so I would not put the groundie in a situation where success is not achievable.

Now, If I have set up a second line to swing the tree, that is different, and it is different in every situation, and I will instruct the ground crew every time.

But once the tree comes over, the pull line goes slack, don't blame the groundie for your bad hinge.


RedlineIt

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

why did you not insist on a truck or pulley?

My thoughts eggzactically!

You are the boss, owner, final decision maker. If you are not comfortable with a situation you do it your way, if you let him make the choice...you made it anyways.

If somthing goes wrong on my job, I look at what I could have done to have made it go right. That is called responsibility.

I'm in charge I take it. If you don't want it, work for someone else.

My one and only claim had a situation where several people could have done something to have made it work different. I was in charge, I did not communicate properly, I could have made calls that would have avoided a tree on a roof.

You made the call to rely on him, you will do different next time and build a mantra as to "steady pull, dont take any wraps on your hands or body, tie a knot if you do not have a good grip..."

I'm sure you will put some MA on the next reverse lean you cut.

Youll make him pay for the SNAFU for the next several years, I'm sure.

 

[Ekka]

There WERE other mitigating factors here... but nothing that a truck couldn't have taken care of.

1) Not much hinge wood.
2) Back lean
3) Side lean - this concerned me the most.
4) Another pine to get around.

These are the ones I like to video, pity you didn't.

Well, least you posted about it. We have no forensic pics either.

Did you use the over gunned technique and also leave a decent pie cut (triangular shaped hinge thicker on side opposite lean)?

If you lost it to the weighted side means the hinge broke unless you aimed the scarf there.

Sometimes one of the "con jobs" of felling a side leaner is setting the pull rope angle off a little to opposite the lean side. Like the ground guy is not pulling facing the hinge but around a little. Idea being to try and pull the tree a little off the lean and prevent it from falling onto the decking. I call it a con job for the reasons pointed out earlier, and that is once the tree commences the fall the pull rope goes slack anyway and it's all up to your skills and nature. However a properly tuned side rope is there working effectively for the entire fall.

Off set pull ropes for side leaning trees is a con job and those of you doing it risk losing trees, of course size does count.

 

[clearance]

After Treeman gets a good and well deserved beating here, Ekka steps in and introduces funny words, like scarf, gunning and pie. In the falling world, at least here it is only undercut, backcut and holding wood.

Now, for the "con job", where else would you pull the rope from on a side leaning tree? Any place other than the side opposite the lean? I guess now, according to Ekka, I am one hell of a con man. Actually its about understanding through experience. When you have been part of crews, as a groundsman and the faller, of pulling over thousands of trees, you get an understanding.

Like I said, I have cut down more pines than I can remember, some of them well over 80' and some bull pines (ponderosa), over 3' at the butt. The falling cuts, as always, are the key. A proper undercut, sufficient holding wood, and a proper backcut. Of course you leave more holding wood away from the lean, that is so basic. Con man Jim here, over and out.

 

[Ekka]

Like I said, con job, and you have been getting conned for years and argue about it.