Safest Method of Entry

[Streyken]

As a few have alluded to, I think the safest method depends on the climbing conditions. On big fir, where the first live branch is 80’ up, I’ll always use spurs and double lanyard. On a heavy leaning alder I like SRT (I use a pantin and ascender). To get around Ivy or pruning certain trees I have a 30’ extension ladder as well as 14’ and 18’ orchard ladders. I’ve never had a problem with spurs slipping, but it’s also the type of trees I climb. On a fir with 4”- 6” cork, if you slip all you have to do is lean back and you’ll catch right away. On a palm or leaning alder this won’t work. Though I’ve never climbed a palm, always wanted to kill a few of those, looks fun. Anyway, for my area I voted spurs.

 

[SRT-Tech]

when nine out of ten residential tree services do not have ladders, and do substandard work.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Guy, just curious, but why is crane an option here. everyone knows it's illegal to ride the hook, thereby, crane is a moot point. you can't do it anyway.
or is this your way of finding out how many still do ride hooks?
-Ralph

Why is riding a hook illegal? What do you think a manbasket is for?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

You asked for the safest way. imo, that is spurs. spurs are not the only way up, but how is it any less safe? On spurs, you are always tied in as well. I know guys who use 2 buckstraps, I, otoh, prefer to use my rope and lanyard. JMNSHO also.
-Ralph

You don't say why spiking is safest. You mention that you are tied in, but you are if you body thrust, ride a crane, srt, and other ways.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

and as for this diatribe that many are going on about (if you cant use a ladder you have no busines being in a tree), all i have to say to that is:

WHAT A PILE OF THE PROVERBIAL STEAMING BOVINE WASTE MATTER!


i guess i have no business being in a tree - I dont even own a ladder :bang:

i guess i have no business being in a tree - I dont use a ladder :bang:

I guess I have no business being in a tree - I choose not to use a ladder :bang:

I guess i have no business being in a tree - I dont need a ladder :bang:

I guess i have no business being in a tree, yup, no ladder here :bang:

well, i best gather up all my equipment, throw it out on the curb, because after all, i dont own or use a ladder, so my skills as a chainsaw operator & tree climber are no longer valid, BECAUSE I DONT OWN OR USE A :censored: LADDER :bang:

see above mention about bull:censored:

my new motto will be "This is my ladder! There are many like it, but this one is mine! My ladder is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, like I master my life. Without me, my ladder is useless. Without my ladder, I am useless. I must set up my ladder true! I must climb higher than my enemy who is trying to outperform me. I must use my ladder like him before he outbids me! I will! Before God, I swear this creed...My ladder and myself are defenders of my skills. We are the masters of our trade. We are the saviors of my life! So be it! Until there is no enemy! But Peace! And that!
Drill Instructor: (Gives command to pull down ladder) AT EASE! Good night, Ladies! "

SIR YES SIR!

The point is that a ladder can be perfectly safe, if used properly. SRT can be very dangerous, as can riding a crane, flying a bucket, and you can even get killed walking across the road. Walking up a ladder is as easy as walking up a flight of stairs, if you can't do that, you don't have business in a tree.
Sorry private, looks like you get a dishonorable discharge.

 

[begleytree]

You don't say why spiking is safest. You mention that you are tied in, but you are if you body thrust, ride a crane, srt, and other ways.

OK, lets go that route then.
attachment to tree while spiking, 2 feet, at least one buckstrap/lanyard/rope on TIP (most likely 2 of these), 2 hands. what more attachment to the tree can you have? only 1 hand or 1 foot at a time would be removed from the tree. thats still 4-5 points of attachment at any given time.
everything else is only 1 point, the TIP,and maybe a buckstrap. last I looked, plain boots against the side walking up, while may have traction, are not an attachment. so haulingup on rope, is at best,2 points of attachment.

for riding the hook, well, here it is illegal, and no cane operator will allow it anyway. manbasket? sure, If I want placed on a roof. The ones I see, you can't do much work out of.

Now I want to hear tom T's explaination of his 'cripes sake' statement.

and Guy, It seems I'm not the only one onsite who picked up on your insinuation. a few others have picked it up and ran with it too.
The mere fact a guy knows how to spur, doesn't mean he does substandard work. This idea, along with the one that someone not using a ladder (by choice) is just silly, and merely a way to assuage ones hurt feelings, imnoho.
-Ralph

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I know a lot of crane operators won't let the climber ride the hook, but I never heard it's ilegal. Do you mean ANSI ilegal, or go to jail illegal?
We ahd a crane removal seminar here a few years back put on by Norm Hall, who you may know from Tom D's site. He talked in depth about riding the ball and even showed method of attaching the cambium saver to the hook so the climbing line couldn't come off or be smashed by the ball. I think ANSI says something like, you can ride the crane if the owner can demonstrate its a safe method.

I just don't see spiking as the safest, mostly because of the possibility of sliding down the spar. I know it happens a lot to utility workers (although just taking a double wrap would solve this). If you are tied to the top of the tree you can't fall any farther than the slack in your rope.

Guy started this poll because Clearance stated that spiking is the safest way to trim a tree, and our industry standard doesn't allow spikes on trims, so the arguement started...

 

[adkranger]

I didn't vote because it's a loaded poll. IMHO any one of those could be the safest method based on one's training, experience, equipment used, etc..... (except trampoline) What I would consider tips it over to a safe method is number/quality of attachment points to the climber and a secure belay. A secure belay is the key element to a safe entry, period. From there whether one prefers to use a ladder, gaffs, ascenders, etc...., those are just tools to accomplish the same mission and varies with training and/or experience.

I personally hate ladders, have used them on several occaisions in tree work but would rather use rope techniques or traditional climbing methods depending on task(TD vs. trim). I certainly don't think if one prefers a different, SAFE technique other than ladder entry it makes them less of a climber.

Use of Gaffs in the appropriate situation, including climber safety, do not make one less of a climber IMO. A competent climber should have a variety of techniques in his/her bag 'o tricks and regularly practice each for proficiency.

I prefer SRT w/safety belay for some situations, DRT for others, certainly Gaff, lanyards w/belay for TDs. It all depends on the current situation, but the Belay is what makes the techniques safe because if the climber gets into trouble he can be safely rescued. Of course you must have a qualified belayer and I realize that may be a limiting factor for some.

My .02.

 

[SRT-Tech]

The point is that a ladder can be perfectly safe, if used properly. SRT can be very dangerous, as can riding a crane, flying a bucket, and you can even get killed walking across the road. Walking up a ladder is as easy as walking up a flight of stairs, if you can't do that, you don't have business in a tree.
Sorry private, looks like you get a dishonorable discharge.

for the work i do a ladder is a useless piece of equipment that takes up room on my truck and that i never use. I dont deal with hedges, shrubs, roof work where you need a ladder. 50% of my work is on ground (firewood bucking), when i do climb, its DRT or SRT or spurs. And to be quite honest....around these parts you'd need a 60 - 120 foot tall ladder just to reach the bottom limbs.

I just found the statement that "if you dont use a ladder you have no business in a tree" to be utterly RIDICULOUS. I have lots of ladder experience from my orchard days, construction, teaching ladder safety as a Site Safety officer etc. I also have business in a tree, lots. And i dont need a ladder.

Telling people they "shouldnt be in a tree" without ladder/ladder skills is ridiculous, most people will tell you to :censored: off.

just saying.

 

[SRT-Tech]

I didn't vote because it's a loaded poll. IMHO any one of those could be the safest method based on one's training, experience, equipment used, etc..... (except trampoline) What I would consider tips it over to a safe method is number/quality of attachment points to the climber and a secure belay. A secure belay is the key element to a safe entry, period. From there whether one prefers to use a ladder, gaffs, ascenders, etc...., those are just tools to accomplish the same mission and varies with training and/or experience.

I personally hate ladders, have used them on several occaisions in tree work but would rather use rope techniques or traditional climbing methods depending on task(TD vs. trim). I certainly don't think if one prefers a different, SAFE technique other than ladder entry it makes them less of a climber.

Use of Gaffs in the appropriate situation, including climber safety, do not make one less of a climber IMO. A competent climber should have a variety of techniques in his/her bag 'o tricks and regularly practice each for proficiency.

I prefer SRT w/safety belay for some situations, DRT for others, certainly Gaff, lanyards w/belay for TDs. It all depends on the current situation, but the Belay is what makes the techniques safe because if the climber gets into trouble he can be safely rescued. Of course you must have a qualified belayer and I realize that may be a limiting factor for some.

My .02.

BEST post in this topic.

 

[begleytree]

Mike, here it's ohsa illegal(i'm told as I don't have nor want,a crane lic), and crane operator fired if seen allowing it illegal.


I know why the arguement started,but honestly, guy should have made it a 2 choice, spurs or everything else, type poll. When this poll ends up with the majority voting spurs, will Guy pawn it off on poor standards and training, or will he admit he might need to look harder at the issue and revise his thinking? only time will tell. I know Guy's a good guy, but online, he can sometimes come off as a know-it-all azz. (like the rest of us)

Mike, I can honestly say I've never burnt a spar. kicked out on a spur before, sure. but not both at the same time. imo, poles are totally different as the same poles are hooked quite frequently, and there's no chance of them healing. poles can be fun, I am up prob 5 a month dropping teleco and CATV svc drops (both companies in town have given me preforms, splices, ect because they know and trust me working with their svc drops). spur length is also a factor here as most utility guys are wearing 3/4 pole hooks, and I'm sticking mine in 2x that far at least.
-Ralph

 

[Ekka]

I voted trampoline, never tried one but sounds like fun and if positioned correctly can also double as a fall arrest device. :monkey:

 

[treeseer]

holy crapples ralph try a little moderation willya? I started the poll to see what folks thought, period. Based on the poll it looks like 1/3 of the respondents think spurs are safest. Do I think that's due to poor standards and training, not necessarily, maybe they do removals only, I don't know. I do know that if the 1/3 gets familiar with other methods many will like them better and find them equally safe. Shoot, I think the tautline hitch is the safest knot (uh oh do you smell a new poll coming?) because that's the one I know best.

I know I don't know it all, and if you want to critteek the poll setup then by golly get off your butt and start your own. :taped: Darn moderators think they know it all. I am encouraged by the 6 with the adventurous spirit to try the trampoline. Fall arrest, that's a great bonus to the trampoline method. Ekka's blazing trails as always!

 

[begleytree]

holy crapples ralph try a little moderation willya? [snip]
I know I don't know it all, and if you want to critteek the poll setup then by golly get off your butt and start your own. :taped: Darn moderators think they know it all.

FISH ON !!!
-Ralph

 

[Soul Assassin]

" I am up prob 5 a month dropping teleco and CATV svc drops (both companies in town have given me preforms, splices, ect because they know and trust me working with their svc drops). spur length is also a factor here as most utility guys are wearing 3/4 pole hooks, and I'm sticking mine in 2x that far at least."
-Ralph

IMHO, that is nothing to brag about. In fact, I would be embarresed if I had that record. If you can't drop it in a safe place between wires, then you should learn to. I'm not trying to diss you, just think it's bad to be taking out lines like that.

When I use a ladder, I use an very long pole pruner to set my rope in a crotch high up, tie in using the split tail with fair lead, as climbing the ladder I keep the line taught, I've also used a pantin while doing this with mixed results. After I'm a ways up I also lanyard into a safe crotch or branch.

Once I'm at the top of the ladder. I'll use the pantin for quick ascention, always roped in with my lifeline or lanyard, using the ALT with a split tail and lanyard.

Climbing spikes or gaffs for me, seem to be the most dangerous. I use the "gecko" brand, and like the angle you can set into the tree. Still, it may be my technique, but I always have problems with slipping and dropping out with spikes. That's just me.

As I get older, ladders are a energy saving device. Most of the time though, I just use a pantin from the ground with my safety line high in the tree and walk up the butt log, and of course using the lanyard. Just my technique.

 

[begleytree]

Slick, I can show you backyards with very large trees, where you can't raise a pruner pole over your head without hitting a drop. one pole here can hold as many as 15 different drops,crisscrossing a certian yard servicing 4-6 houses. I can work around anything I need to, but I am a tree service, not a limb pruner in a pickup. Time is money for me, so drops come down if needed. You may have all day to play around, but I don't. in case you misunderstood, I don't tear them down, I unhook them, all but power, as I feel it is necessary. I'm sorry you don't have that luxury where you work.
BTW, trying to change your posting style along with your name, chronic1? It doesn't suit you.
-Ralph

 

[adkranger]

" I am up prob 5 a month dropping teleco and CATV svc drops (both companies in town have given me preforms, splices, ect because they know and trust me working with their svc drops). spur length is also a factor here as most utility guys are wearing 3/4 pole hooks, and I'm sticking mine in 2x that far at least."
-Ralph

IMHO, that is nothing to brag about. In fact, I would be embarresed if I had that record. If you can't drop it in a safe place between wires, then you should learn to. I'm not trying to diss you, just think it's bad to be taking out lines like that.

I don't think Ralph is referring to crashing down CATV & Bell wires 5 times a month. I believe in "dropping" he is referring to a preventitive action of safely and effectively disconnecting the said wires from their tensioners and/or connectors either at the pole, on the clients residence or both, lay them on the ground out of harms way. Thereby increasing the safe space he has to operate in. I'm sure he'll chime in if I'm off base, but I highly doubt it. I have and I'm quite sure many, many professional tree guys have done this for years. BTW, Bell & CATV Co.s usually appreciate this as long as you don't f@!$ up any of their equipment. And I refer to it as "dropping" too, probably not the best reference term, but then again I know what I mean.:biggrinbounce2:

 

[adkranger]

Oops

Looks like he beat me to it.:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[begleytree]

yeah well, ranger, you said it better than I did. I'm in one helluva mood tonight.
-Ralph

 

[Soul Assassin]

Slick, I can show you backyards with very large trees, where you can't raise a pruner pole over your head without hitting a drop. one pole here can hold as many as 15 different drops,crisscrossing a certian yard servicing 4-6 houses. I can work around anything I need to, but I am a tree service, not a limb pruner in a pickup. Time is money for me, so drops come down if needed. You may have all day to play around, but I don't.
BTW, trying to change your posting style along with your name, chronic1? It doesn't suit you.
-Ralph

Yeah, Time is money for you...I'd rather be safe. I'm not impressed by your unsafe rushing techniques. I work in the same situations you do, and in four years have never hit a service drop or cable line. And yes I "Play around" slick. I do it the right way and the safest way possible.

If you're thinking I'm a guy in a pickup truck, pruning limbs, you're wrong on that point too. I've seen yahoo's like you come and go, I'd like to be around for a while. I did start from the ground up with a pickup, but trained to not rush and keep safe at all times.

BTW, I'll post anyway I choose, you don't impress me. I think the caveman does suit you though, and I wouldn't contract with you for all the money in the world, the money that you think is more important than safety. You're a tree service ? Just what does that mean ? Big company ? Big equipment ? Big ego ? Lol. Let me tell YOU slick, I have more knowledge about forestry and dendrology (look it up) than you'll ever have, and your callus attitude toward destruction of property gives the industry a bad rep.