mga
wandering
how much are you spending on wood?
if free, how much time are you spending hauling, cutting, splitting, stacking, etc?
Saving Money with firewood heat
- Thread starter Roofgunner
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how much are you spending on wood?
if free, how much time are you spending hauling, cutting, splitting, stacking, etc?
CrappieKeith
Addicted to ArboristSite
Excel Energy in the state of Mn. last year said that 35%of their customers still owed from last years heating.
So if folks paying for liquid fuel to heat and they can't afford it and they are keeping the temps at around 65...all I can see is one huge oxymoron....freezing ..no return on investment...just tossing money out the window...literally.
I guess I can see guys living in a warmer or milder climate going to heat pumps,but why give your money away???? Can you cash out on your electric bill?
Burning wood means I get to pay myself. If the return is not very good for you...maybe look at a more efficient wood burner....if you can heat your home 24/7on wood...then you must take the dollar amount you would have and have been paying someone else and put this money into your account...someone has to get paid to heat your home.It may as well be you.
A cord of wood can/will vary in btus....hardness/density and moisture content have everything to do with what that lb. of wood can make in btus. Then the wood burner has to be able to make those available btu's and it has to be able to exchange them as well.
You can not expect to have this huge windfall with toy wood burners. Everyone's house is different to heat. Climates are different too...this winter has been like an Indiana winter here in Mn....strange.
My elec...runs 60$ a month no change when summer comes.To heat...it is what ever 6-7 cords will cost me.
a cord run through the furnace I have make about 150-200 gallons worth of #2 fuel oil heat.So 150 times 7 is 1050 gallons. #2 goes for about $3.50 a gallon here so that is a $3675 bill. Subtract my wood cost of $875 and I'll pay myself $2800 this winter.
After 16 years I'm well over 30 grand to the good.
If I had a heat pump...it would still be paying for itself....hence a bill I'd owe.
If I had a gas furnace or oil furnace....I'd have a bill.
Burning wood I have no bill...my furnace has long since paid for itself....and every year it puts a few more grand into my pocket and I get to have a warm toasty home...with or without power.
I do not cut or split my wood...I'll pay for that which does come out of my profit.
So when I'm not cutting what am I doing with my time?
I'm guiding!
...and you can take that to the bank!!!!
...and ya know what...everyone is smiling!
So if folks paying for liquid fuel to heat and they can't afford it and they are keeping the temps at around 65...all I can see is one huge oxymoron....freezing ..no return on investment...just tossing money out the window...literally.
I guess I can see guys living in a warmer or milder climate going to heat pumps,but why give your money away???? Can you cash out on your electric bill?
Burning wood means I get to pay myself. If the return is not very good for you...maybe look at a more efficient wood burner....if you can heat your home 24/7on wood...then you must take the dollar amount you would have and have been paying someone else and put this money into your account...someone has to get paid to heat your home.It may as well be you.
A cord of wood can/will vary in btus....hardness/density and moisture content have everything to do with what that lb. of wood can make in btus. Then the wood burner has to be able to make those available btu's and it has to be able to exchange them as well.
You can not expect to have this huge windfall with toy wood burners. Everyone's house is different to heat. Climates are different too...this winter has been like an Indiana winter here in Mn....strange.
My elec...runs 60$ a month no change when summer comes.To heat...it is what ever 6-7 cords will cost me.
a cord run through the furnace I have make about 150-200 gallons worth of #2 fuel oil heat.So 150 times 7 is 1050 gallons. #2 goes for about $3.50 a gallon here so that is a $3675 bill. Subtract my wood cost of $875 and I'll pay myself $2800 this winter.
After 16 years I'm well over 30 grand to the good.
If I had a heat pump...it would still be paying for itself....hence a bill I'd owe.
If I had a gas furnace or oil furnace....I'd have a bill.
Burning wood I have no bill...my furnace has long since paid for itself....and every year it puts a few more grand into my pocket and I get to have a warm toasty home...with or without power.
I do not cut or split my wood...I'll pay for that which does come out of my profit.
So when I'm not cutting what am I doing with my time?
I'm guiding!
...and you can take that to the bank!!!!
...and ya know what...everyone is smiling!
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owbguy
ArboristSite Operative
I save about $2600-$2700 per year in LP costs. Granted, I now spend more time sawing and hauling wood, and loading the owb once a day. I have increased costs for gas mix, bar & chain oil, chains, etc. I have 8 seasons with the owb now. Until this year, I had not bought any new gear other than a husky 357xp and 338xp. I was doing pretty well until..... Now, with the ole "work smarter, not harder" motto, I added a winch and some rope and I'm getting a splitter. I'm not planning on going anywhere any time soon. I live on 88 acres and about half is mature woods with oak, maple, cherry and black locust. I'm still ahead of the game.
3 final thoughts that cannot be overlooked.
First, quality of life. My house is warmer and now I don't lose my temper when the kids leave the door open in the middle of winter. When my kids were younger they would open the door to look outside, meanwhile the freezing air was gushing in and my heat was leaving. They were always leaving the main door open and only closing the storm door. Now I don't care. We have all the heat we need and then some. My wife likes it warmer than I do, so I just open a window when she's not paying attention. No big deal now.
Second, I love cutting wood. I don't know why, but I do. When I was a young kid, like 8 years old, I asked for a chain saw for Christmas. Other kids wanted skateboards and toys. I wanted a chain saw. I figure I can either spend money on counseling, or buy a saw and head into the woods.... :msp_tongue:
Third, and last but not least, I'm also a pyromaniac. I love a good fire. My owb is my fix...
Carry on....
3 final thoughts that cannot be overlooked.
First, quality of life. My house is warmer and now I don't lose my temper when the kids leave the door open in the middle of winter. When my kids were younger they would open the door to look outside, meanwhile the freezing air was gushing in and my heat was leaving. They were always leaving the main door open and only closing the storm door. Now I don't care. We have all the heat we need and then some. My wife likes it warmer than I do, so I just open a window when she's not paying attention. No big deal now.
Second, I love cutting wood. I don't know why, but I do. When I was a young kid, like 8 years old, I asked for a chain saw for Christmas. Other kids wanted skateboards and toys. I wanted a chain saw. I figure I can either spend money on counseling, or buy a saw and head into the woods.... :msp_tongue:
Third, and last but not least, I'm also a pyromaniac. I love a good fire. My owb is my fix...
Carry on....
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The ROI will be much faster if you don't burn any oil, and you can scrounge all your wood. Granted, that may not be an option, but it will help.
One thing that I've found is that it's easy for the money to be spent other ways. Make sure you put a little towards maintenance and repairs, as well as consumables like chains and gas/oil.
we probably save about $1500 a year or so by not having to buy propane for the furnace. We do use it a little in the shoulder season, but I try to keep it to a minimum.
One thing that I've found is that it's easy for the money to be spent other ways. Make sure you put a little towards maintenance and repairs, as well as consumables like chains and gas/oil.
we probably save about $1500 a year or so by not having to buy propane for the furnace. We do use it a little in the shoulder season, but I try to keep it to a minimum.
ponyexpress976
nipple fritters
With the Marcelus Shales Deposits coming on line, being on the bottle has become more reasonable than in the past here in PA. I've gotten rid of everything but the tank...which I'll probably fill once every 25yrs to run my outdoor kitchen (build planned for this summer). Im saving a few hundred a month heating with wood. Lord only knows how much Im saving compared to using the electric baseboard heaters that were installed when the place was built. One guy in my neighborhood says his electric bill in the dead of winter knocks on the door of 5 benjamins...OUCH!
Burning firewood saves me money, too.
Let's see: a few logs on the fire, a $1 Redbox DVD, $15 worth of ribeyes on the grill, and a $10 bottle of wine. I'm probably saving $100 every time I fire my fireplace up (you been to the movies lately? ridiculous). And there are "fringe" benefits, too.
Let's see: a few logs on the fire, a $1 Redbox DVD, $15 worth of ribeyes on the grill, and a $10 bottle of wine. I'm probably saving $100 every time I fire my fireplace up (you been to the movies lately? ridiculous). And there are "fringe" benefits, too.
$100 per month is pretty cheap. I save about $250 a month on the colder months (below freezing), and $75 a month on the warmer months where the highs are up in the 40s and low 50s. The warmer months actually cost me more because I can only turn my wood burner down so far be fore I decide to just let it go out, at which point the NG furnace takes over. I'm doing a little better this year because I started cutting my normal firewood (24") in half (12"), which has allowed me to run the wood burner in much warmer weather than what I have in previous years.
Marc
Addicted to ArboristSite
This is an eloquent way to explain opportunity cost to people, especially when it comes to one's own time. People are often making the mistaken assumption that one's own time is worth whatever they're paid at work per hour or some other faulty metric. The opportunity cost of the time spent working on firewood, if you try to put a dollar value on it, is roughly equal to what you would be doing with that time otherwise, not what you could be doing. Because that's realistic. And then add in the the health benefits of splitting, stacking, gathering including the mental benefit for a desk jockey like me of being able to get outside and physically work hard... these are so often over looked.
That's why it always gets me when people inevitably point out "well, how much is that time you spend on firewood costing you?" I like doing it. So reallistically, the cost is negligible.
Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
Interesting analysis, and yes you can calculate the “value” of wood heat using this thing we call “money” as way of equating it to some other (fossil fuel) energy source. But that is only one way to look at it. It does not take into account that the value of money is not constant (and right now is a precarious thing), nor are the cost of the fossil fuels that are the alternatives to wood heat.
The future availabilities and costs of these things are uncertain – the grid is old and severely lacking in maintenance, refineries are shutting down on the East coast due to lack of crude oil that can be profitably refined, shale gas is a financial scam and bubble that is driving down gas prices but will burst soon. None of this factors into a simple analysis of present equivalent cost. What is the relative value of wood heat when you turn the thermostat and nothing happens?
I'm substituting a huge amount of my own physical labor, plus a very small amount of gasoline and oil, to avoid the costs of replacing my old oil-fired furnace and tank and buying the fuel to run it. How shall I value my labor – should I use the cost of my hourly wage as a Principal Design Engineer? If I did that it would never make sense, but then again that would be false because I could not earn more with that time anyway. And also my job will likely disappear before long, along with most everyone else's, so what would my time be worth then? The real cost of that time is in the other possible things I could have done with that time – none of which are likely to earn much money, but I can do other repairs and projects, grow food, etc. Still, that time is not actually worth much “money”.
My spare labor hours are being spent providing one of the most basic essential my family needs: heat. But I don't know how to “value” that using our present standards, and I don't think those will continue to be relevant.
The future availabilities and costs of these things are uncertain – the grid is old and severely lacking in maintenance, refineries are shutting down on the East coast due to lack of crude oil that can be profitably refined, shale gas is a financial scam and bubble that is driving down gas prices but will burst soon. None of this factors into a simple analysis of present equivalent cost. What is the relative value of wood heat when you turn the thermostat and nothing happens?
I'm substituting a huge amount of my own physical labor, plus a very small amount of gasoline and oil, to avoid the costs of replacing my old oil-fired furnace and tank and buying the fuel to run it. How shall I value my labor – should I use the cost of my hourly wage as a Principal Design Engineer? If I did that it would never make sense, but then again that would be false because I could not earn more with that time anyway. And also my job will likely disappear before long, along with most everyone else's, so what would my time be worth then? The real cost of that time is in the other possible things I could have done with that time – none of which are likely to earn much money, but I can do other repairs and projects, grow food, etc. Still, that time is not actually worth much “money”.
My spare labor hours are being spent providing one of the most basic essential my family needs: heat. But I don't know how to “value” that using our present standards, and I don't think those will continue to be relevant.
Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
Good - somewhat similar to what I was getting at!
Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
It doesn't have to. I have 4 saws, none worth much. Only one, the 142, was bought new for $150, the rest were free or assembled from parts. The money I've spent on parts is tiny. Old 12hp WheelHorse and cheap 4-wheel cart, half a dozen axes and mauls and a few wedges. Maybe $2800 on two stoves. Biggest expense was the work we had done on the chimney, but I'm not sure how much to allocate as some of it needed doing anyway, but call it $5000. My ongoing costs now are very small - pretty much nonexistent.
I was saving money had one saw and 25 plus year old stove then I joined here I have 4 saws now and looking at another this weekend. I need to stop:bang:
It's sort of like reloading. You may spend less per round, but you end up shooting more just because it's cheaper. At least if you have the time. :bang:
fiasco
ArboristSite Operative
Fastest return on investment...
Installed wood stove summer of 08...had ice storm in late November 08. As far as my wife was concerned, that stove was paid for during that 8 days without power (although I was using some borrowed generators to hot-wire the oil burner at times and circulate the water in the BBHW pipes).
The reality is that now we go through about 300 gallons of heating oil a winter (it was less than 200 gallons the first winter, but now with two growing boys...), it was about 150-200 gallons a MONTH when relying on the oil 100%. I finally paid more than a token $50 for wood this year...split a 9 cord or so grapple load with my father for $425, and bought "about a cord" off a neighbor for $100 (this is all for next year). My dad and I share an MTD splitter, he has a couple Kubota tractors to help move wood, I have a $300 used utility trailer that I use to torture my Subaru, and we each have a couple saws. I'm hoping that getting this load this year may make it easier to do more scrounging this year, although I may just go the grapple route again to save time.
Maybe I'm money ahead, maybe I'm not, but at least I'm a bit less dependent on the oil man than I otherwise would be and that's not a bad thing.
Installed wood stove summer of 08...had ice storm in late November 08. As far as my wife was concerned, that stove was paid for during that 8 days without power (although I was using some borrowed generators to hot-wire the oil burner at times and circulate the water in the BBHW pipes).
The reality is that now we go through about 300 gallons of heating oil a winter (it was less than 200 gallons the first winter, but now with two growing boys...), it was about 150-200 gallons a MONTH when relying on the oil 100%. I finally paid more than a token $50 for wood this year...split a 9 cord or so grapple load with my father for $425, and bought "about a cord" off a neighbor for $100 (this is all for next year). My dad and I share an MTD splitter, he has a couple Kubota tractors to help move wood, I have a $300 used utility trailer that I use to torture my Subaru, and we each have a couple saws. I'm hoping that getting this load this year may make it easier to do more scrounging this year, although I may just go the grapple route again to save time.
Maybe I'm money ahead, maybe I'm not, but at least I'm a bit less dependent on the oil man than I otherwise would be and that's not a bad thing.
jeepmedic
ArboristSite Lurker
We bought our current home back in November and its about 2000 sq ft log cabin 6 years old. I cut all the wood on my land and the home came with a OWB. My electric bill is $100 a month. We keep our house @ 67F.
My old house was build in 1928 with a gas furnace, and we were paying a combo natural gas/electric bill of $250-350 monthly during the winter. We kept this house @ 60F.
Even when I factor the cost of my saw, gas, chains, sharpener, splitter.....the cost savings for us has been huge monthly alone, plus my house is much warmer and the wife is happier
Plus, now Im out all day cutting wood and lost 16lbs, not sitting on my a** playing on the computer !
My old house was build in 1928 with a gas furnace, and we were paying a combo natural gas/electric bill of $250-350 monthly during the winter. We kept this house @ 60F.
Even when I factor the cost of my saw, gas, chains, sharpener, splitter.....the cost savings for us has been huge monthly alone, plus my house is much warmer and the wife is happier
Plus, now Im out all day cutting wood and lost 16lbs, not sitting on my a** playing on the computer !
Mr Good Wood
ArboristSite Member
2300 sq ft, average insulation older windows, used to go through 1000 or more gallons of #2 fuel so ... not sure of current prices, 3.35 maybe so 3500 a year. owb paid off last year, factor in electricity to run pumps and blower and wood getting and cutting and splitting cost, maybe 800 a year = 2700 a year or 350-375 a month, 7-8 month season we use owb.
We have propane but that heat sucks, old oil burner ran hot water heat now owb is tied in house is 72-73degrees nice and warm here
We have propane but that heat sucks, old oil burner ran hot water heat now owb is tied in house is 72-73degrees nice and warm here
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Ayatollah
ArboristSite Operative
I've been saving money on wood. The wood has been all for free on craigslist, and just my labor and a little fuel invested. We live in a natural gas area, and it isn't very costly, but I like independence. We've been burning steadily since the 1st of November, and the only gas we've been paying for is for the stove. The bill has been negligible, but it used to run about 60.00 per month when we used it regularly in winter. So we're saving around 40.00 per month, but the house is much warmer, and the ambiance can't be compared. We've burned through about 1 1/2 cord so far.
Another added advantage is that there's no utility tax on wood, and I like depriving politicians.
Besides, it's a cultural thing
Another added advantage is that there's no utility tax on wood, and I like depriving politicians.
Besides, it's a cultural thing
10 years ago I bought 2 Stihl saws from Ebay - a 066 for $400 and a 029 for $150. The 066 came with a 32" bar and new chain and the 029 came with a new 24" bar and chain. I repaired a log splitter for a woman at our church. She had an old log splitter that had thrown a rod. She asked me to haul it away to the dump. I told her I would be glad to help get rid of that wrecked splitter and brought it straight home. It wound up being a Lickety Log Splitter. I found a replacement 8 HP Kohler K181 engine that I rebuilt. After the engine, hoses, fluid and repairing broken stuff on the splitter I think it is conservative to say I have $400 in the log splitter. I don't use it much because I like splitting with a maul.
I sold my overworked Toyota truck that I was killing slowly and bought a 1997 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 with the Cummins diesel 5 years ago. The switch cost me $2500. Last summer I bought a surplus military trailer for $600 that doubled my hauling capacity.
I joined up with Arboristsite 5 years ago. This actually cost me money (ask my wife, she complains all the time). I caught a nasty case of CAD and search high and low for derelict chainsaws I can repair. In addition to the 2 Stihl saws I now have a Husqvarna 266 ($40 initial investmant, about $50 in parts), Husqvarna 40 ($20 initial investment, $50 in parts), a Homelite C-52 that was in excellent condition other than sitting for 25 years ($50 initial investment, $20 in parts) and a MS250 i am fixing for my friend Steve ($0 initial investment, he's paying for parts), a Husqvarna 36 I got for another friend I cut with ($0 initial investment, $0 in parts), a nasty Husqvarna 141 ($0 initial invenstment, $0 in parts).
I figure I spend about $300 in fuel and oil for my truck and equipment per year. I am blessed with two friends that let me cut firewood on their property. I have never paid for wood.
So I have a capitol investment of $3280 and a yearly cost of ~$300. My wife said our power bill goes up $100 a month for 6 months that she wants the house heated for a total of $600/year. I think that's a little low, but I learned about arguing with her years ago. At that rate I paid off my investment in equipment and fuel in 10 years.
I cut wood with a group of friends that includes 2 pastors at our church. They are afraid of chainsaws and don't know how to split wood. I have heated their homes for years as well. This analysis doesn't include the savings at their houses.
I am a mechanical engineer for my day job. I tell my friends at work about heating with wood and they think I am crazy. They can't understand why anyone would work as hard as I do all summer to get firewood when it is sooooo much easier to flip on the furnace. That's fine with me - they don't know what the real draw is. I think I would heat with wood even if I lost money. There is nothing like going out in the woods with a group of friends and working hard to heat our homes. I can't think of anything I would rather do on a Saturday than go out in the serenity of the woods early and break that serenity with a screaming 90cc Stihl chainsaw in my hands. It's hard to put a price on stating a fire for my family at 5 AM in the wood stove so it is 70° when they wake up or playing with my boys in the living room in front of the fire when I come home from work. I love working all day in the woods and coming home to a shower, a warm plate of food and a comfortable bed. I always sleep well after cutting up firewood. The best part is helping people who are less fortunate make ends meet by saving heating costs while doing something I enjoy.
Long story short, I recouped my equipment costs and am netting approximately $300/year which I think is conservative. I can't put a price on doing something I love with really good friends on Saturdays off. As far as I am concerned I am coming out way ahead cutting wood to heat my house.
I sold my overworked Toyota truck that I was killing slowly and bought a 1997 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 with the Cummins diesel 5 years ago. The switch cost me $2500. Last summer I bought a surplus military trailer for $600 that doubled my hauling capacity.
I joined up with Arboristsite 5 years ago. This actually cost me money (ask my wife, she complains all the time). I caught a nasty case of CAD and search high and low for derelict chainsaws I can repair. In addition to the 2 Stihl saws I now have a Husqvarna 266 ($40 initial investmant, about $50 in parts), Husqvarna 40 ($20 initial investment, $50 in parts), a Homelite C-52 that was in excellent condition other than sitting for 25 years ($50 initial investment, $20 in parts) and a MS250 i am fixing for my friend Steve ($0 initial investment, he's paying for parts), a Husqvarna 36 I got for another friend I cut with ($0 initial investment, $0 in parts), a nasty Husqvarna 141 ($0 initial invenstment, $0 in parts).
I figure I spend about $300 in fuel and oil for my truck and equipment per year. I am blessed with two friends that let me cut firewood on their property. I have never paid for wood.
So I have a capitol investment of $3280 and a yearly cost of ~$300. My wife said our power bill goes up $100 a month for 6 months that she wants the house heated for a total of $600/year. I think that's a little low, but I learned about arguing with her years ago. At that rate I paid off my investment in equipment and fuel in 10 years.
I cut wood with a group of friends that includes 2 pastors at our church. They are afraid of chainsaws and don't know how to split wood. I have heated their homes for years as well. This analysis doesn't include the savings at their houses.
I am a mechanical engineer for my day job. I tell my friends at work about heating with wood and they think I am crazy. They can't understand why anyone would work as hard as I do all summer to get firewood when it is sooooo much easier to flip on the furnace. That's fine with me - they don't know what the real draw is. I think I would heat with wood even if I lost money. There is nothing like going out in the woods with a group of friends and working hard to heat our homes. I can't think of anything I would rather do on a Saturday than go out in the serenity of the woods early and break that serenity with a screaming 90cc Stihl chainsaw in my hands. It's hard to put a price on stating a fire for my family at 5 AM in the wood stove so it is 70° when they wake up or playing with my boys in the living room in front of the fire when I come home from work. I love working all day in the woods and coming home to a shower, a warm plate of food and a comfortable bed. I always sleep well after cutting up firewood. The best part is helping people who are less fortunate make ends meet by saving heating costs while doing something I enjoy.
Long story short, I recouped my equipment costs and am netting approximately $300/year which I think is conservative. I can't put a price on doing something I love with really good friends on Saturdays off. As far as I am concerned I am coming out way ahead cutting wood to heat my house.
