sawmills/lumber companies employing own loggers

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IcePick

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I've heard overhead is just too high in this day and age for a lumber company or sawmill to put loggers on their payroll with an hourly or salaried wage along with benefits. This could include smaller lumber companies or sawmills along with larger corporations such as Weyerhaeuser. Are those days gone, or does anyone know of any companies who still do this? Are there still loggers who belong to unions? Thanks for any information.
 
A few timber companies still have company loggers. Green Diamond Timber Co. has company loggers; a grapple yarder side and two shovel sides if I remember right with a yoader and road building side. Weyco still has company logging sides but has gradually moved out of it. I'll try and think more. I know more about Green Diamond because I worked for them one summer. So the do not do their own processing. They did not want to incur the capital cost of buying the heads, machines, and additional mechanic to run a side. Mostly they felt that would be a weak point for them and their strongest points were shovel logging and grapple yarding along with loading. They are in the unique position that they have lots of grapple ground and are able to around 70% of their own yarder ground if I remember correctly. The rest requires a big yarder and they keep one outfit busy pretty much year round. That outfit is NDC Timber, they were featured in Timberwest a few months back. Probably one of the best and most expensive tower loggers on the south end of the Olympic Peninsula. They get what they ask price wise. Weyco has really moved away from tower logging. They still do some but again have been angling away from it. Green Diamond does not have a truck fleet and they hire all their trucking done. The big thing that major players are moving back towards is the trucking. It has become very difficult to get reliable trucking unless you are willing to pay for it. Sierra Pacific is a very good example of this. They own some of their own trucks to maintain a certain constant volume coming into their mills. Without owning their own trucks they would see greater fluctuations in daily deliveries. Overall most timber companies are probably not going to be getting back into the logging end of things; if they are in it now then they will probably stay in it or at least in what they feel they can do the most efficiently themselves. I have also worked for a company that contracted all their logging and kept their loggers right at the poverty line. Because there is always a guy willing to log cheaper than the next, the timber company is able to do this but it causes lots of guys to go broke. Now one would say "oh this is just the free market at work" while yes this is true those guys are not helping themselves and are definitely not making a profit or breaking even. If everyone was sensible and only worked for what they knew they could be profitable at then the timber companies utilizing these practices would pay more, but good luck trying to "unionize loggers." I mean that as a tongue and cheek explanation, not advocating that lol Some companies like Green Diamond pay their contractors very well but they are also generally paying for the best. Oh and that company that kept their contractors at the poverty line, I was with them two years ago and out of the main contractors there is only one logging for them still. The reason is he is good at what he does and he takes the tough ground and can demand a higher price. Everyone else found work elsewhere.

Sorry that was the long winded answer to your question lol
 
Mills with their own logging sides pretty much ended in the late 1980s. I know of no unions around anymore. Logging wages have stayed around the same level too. For yarder crews, the workmens' comp is equal to or more than their hourly pay.

Our local mills seem to keep the same loggers going under contract. Those logging outfits pay the best, and have some benefits. Then, there are the gypos, some who might pay under the table and illegally skip paying the insurance, hoping for no on the job injuries. The better the pay, the better the employees. B&M, has skidders, yarders, feller bunchers, loaders, and quite a fleet of trucks. If a piece of equipment breaks down, they'll bring up another machine to keep the logs moving. They are reliable and good to work with. I imagine the mills find the same things good about them. They keep them working.

Shovel logging did away with a few jobs, fallers aren't needed on gentle ground because of bunchers cutting it, and processors on the landing take much of the work load off the fallers and chasers/knot bumpers. Still, there are ads once in a while for experienced workers.

We'll see if more restrictions do away with more yarder logging. There is a clamor for the end of logging on steep ground because of the Oso Landslide. Never mind that geologists are saying that logging has very little impact on that type of ground. We'll see if the Something Must Be Done people forget or if they apply pressure to make more restrictions.
 
Our local mills seem to keep the same loggers going under contract. Those logging outfits pay the best, and have some benefits.

Likewise, these outfits seem to win the bids for cutting as well, and they do a good job and we're always happy to see them on our land because we know they're going to do things right. All market pressures aside, there is still a strong demand for quality work.
 
I've heard overhead is just too high in this day and age for a lumber company or sawmill to put loggers on their payroll with an hourly or salaried wage along with benefits. This could include smaller lumber companies or sawmills along with larger corporations such as Weyerhaeuser. Are those days gone, or does anyone know of any companies who still do this? Are there still loggers who belong to unions? Thanks for any information.


You've had some good answers to your question already but maybe I can add a little. The company that I have the most experience with, Sierra Pacific, owns almost 2 million acres of timber land in California. They also own most of the mills. The majority of the timber the mills get comes from their own land.
See the pattern? One company basically controls the majority of timber cut in this part of the state. They also have land and mills in other states and are buying more all the time.

They're not a logging company, they're a lumber company. Logging, to them, is just a part of the supply chain, and other than the fact that it keeps the mills supplied with lumber they're not really very interested in it. They do however take a great deal of care with their land so that it will keep producing timber. They started buying timber land when it became apparent that government timber sales were starting to decline. It was a smart move on their part.

The only SP employees that go to the woods are the Foresters, the 'ologists, and the logging truck drivers. Everybody else in the woods is a contractor of some kind. The company owns no logging equipment nor do they want any. The logistics of a company that size doing their own logging would be a major undertaking. They've found that, financially...long term, it's better for them to hire the logging done than to do it themselves. Knowing them as well as I do and knowing how shrewd they are with a dollar I have to believe that they've chosen the course that benefits them the most.

They're not union and I doubt seriously if they ever will be. SPI is owned by one family, basically four people, and the anti-union feelings are strong. SPI pays their own employees decent wages and the benefit package they offer is outstanding.

The company tends to use the same loggers as much as possible. There are several logging companies that work only for SP. They tend to be good outfits that are in tune with how SP wants things done. I've seen logging companies come and go but the ones that seem to have the most success are the ones that log clean, know how to work with the THP, put out a decent amount of production, and are willing to work for what SP pays them. This is the important part. I'm not saying that SP doesn't pay a decent rate. They do. They just don't pay any more than they have to for their logging. It's up to the logger to find some way to make a profit out of what he's being paid. Every major timber company I've ever seen was that way.

The loggers supply the men and machinery to get the logs to the mill. As a rule the fallers are not employees of the logger but independent contractors themselves. Almost every faller I know has himself set up as a business. They contract themselves to the logger and are usually paid by the foot or by the day. The fallers are responsible for all their work expenses...including insurance. When you hear about the day rates fallers get...especially steep ground fallers on a helicopter or yarder side, you might think they're making a lot of money but they're not. By the time a faller pays his expenses he's not left with much.

I don't know what the average WC rate is for fallers right now but I imagine it's huge. Small logging companies or large, nobody can afford WC for fallers...thus the move toward fallers being contractors themselves. None of the loggers and none of the fallers have any affiliation with unions. I don't see that changing any time soon.

Like OlympicYJ said, SP has some of their own logging trucks but the majority of the logs are hauled by gypos...either trucks belonging to the logger himself or owner-operators with their own trucks. The last figures I heard was that the SP trucks hauled approximately 25% of the logs going into the mills on a company-wide basis.
 
Bob you said what I was trying to say much better. Hopefully someday I can be as articulate as that. For a young guy I guess I am but I realize I have a tendency to take the long answer... my dad says it's the German in me lol I figure I'll get better with age.

I didn't know the percentage but that is what I would of guessed. I failed at explaining its the sheer logistics of it. Weyco company loggers are union and that's mostly why they want out of it. The good loggers are always employed and tend to get snatched up by the companies in it for the long haul. I have to say SPI is a very efficient outfit. The foresters that I know that have left generally move on to smaller outfits that offer just a little bit more.

Wes
 
to answer you icepick, one that I know of here but they all family.....logger is the mill owner's son. other than that no one is doing that. subcontractors are the rule. and guys like me are few now.....gypo y'all call us lol.

slowp, steep ground? lol, its amazing to me to hear of y'all workin it at all. it is flat here but any steep ground is almost off limits to all but the very few of us hand fallers left. in fact I have to explain to nooby foresters what i'm going to do cuz all they know now is bunchers and grapple skidders.
 
I know of several foresters around here who are employed by a mill, but also have a logging business (separate entity) that cuts the timber they buy. They get paid their salary and then the business gets paid for cut/skidding. Pretty sharp idea really. I should have gone to school for forestry. Around here all the logging is subbed out and all of the workers for hand cutting operations are all subbed out. Like say I'm cutting for the mill. Icepick cuts for me and he needs his own insurance. I had a guy run my skidder and he needed his own insurance. Workers comp rates are like $40/$100 here. For fully mechanized its only like $10/$100. I've heard that mech crews do have employees sometimes. Brett I know you know this already, but I thought I'd share what its like around here anyway.
 
Champion used to have a mill near here and their own logging crews. It was a Champion crew that took a yarder across a bridge, without paying attention to the load limit sign. They'd just bought the yarder and it was on tires, if I'm remembering this correctly so the yarder engineer was in the cab and driving it. The bridge did not hold, and yarder and driver went into the river. Nobody who was there could swim, except for the yarder engineer and he popped up and got to shore. Shortly after that, Champion got rid of their logging crews. Shortly after that, they sold their mill and lands in this area. The yarder was salvaged. Humptulips saw it working again. The bridge was not replaced and we lost another route to use when floods and or slides close other roads.
 
Yeah I was gonna say the same, it being a conflict of interest. I don't think any mills around here would allow it, somebody would get their drawrs in a bunch and all hell would break loose. Now I could see a forester being part owner in a logging outfit that logged for somebody else... I'm hoping a little after I get settled into a job to start logging farmer patches and small clearing jobs on the weekend but I most likely won't be working for a mill so it wouldn't be a conflict. Dad's got equipment I can fix up that he's not using and in a way I'd probably be taking over that aspect of my Uncle's business as he goes into retirement.
 
I've heard overhead is just too high in this day and age for a lumber company or sawmill to put loggers on their payroll with an hourly or salaried wage along with benefits. This could include smaller lumber companies or sawmills along with larger corporations such as Weyerhaeuser. Are those days gone, or does anyone know of any companies who still do this? Are there still loggers who belong to unions? Thanks for any information.
I'd like to move out there and get Bitz to hire me on as well. Then Brett and I could form a union (not the kind u'r thinking of Brian) and stick it to the man! Actually, I'm too tired to even think about that, so you're on your own Mr. Pick
 
I'd like to move out there and get Bitz to hire me on as well. Then Brett and I could form a union (not the kind u'r thinking of Brian) and stick it to the man! Actually, I'm too tired to even think about that, so you're on your own Mr. Pick
Is Brett the one that will start your saw for you ? :buttkick::laugh:
 
I'd like to move out there and get Bitz to hire me on as well. Then Brett and I could form a union (not the kind u'r thinking of Brian) and stick it to the man! Actually, I'm too tired to even think about that, so you're on your own Mr. Pick

Don't move here unless three people for each one of you move out of our state. Thems the rules cuz I made it up. Okanogan County now has THREE traffic lights not counting the little blinkers, and they are on the less populated side. That's too much.
 
I just feel like I know a lot more about the timber industry when it existed one hundred years ago as opposed to the present day. Just trying to get edumacated as much as I can about the industry as it stands in this day and age.
 
Don't move here unless three people for each one of you move out of our state. Thems the rules cuz I made it up. Okanogan County now has THREE traffic lights not counting the little blinkers, and they are on the less populated side. That's too much.
Ms. P thats what happened here, just to many came here and changed everything. i understand your meaning even though its a joke...sort of.
 

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