xander9727
The Silverback
I think I 'll offer a groundie internship this summer.
If I can get work for free and make them happy at the same time I'll be set.
If I can get work for free and make them happy at the same time I'll be set.
Sealing Wounds?
- Thread starter huskycandoit
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
We have student interns at Swingle. They get paid the same as any of the summer help. The company arranges for housing too. Nothing fancy but it's much easier for them to come out for the few months and not have to work out leases. The interns generally rotate through the departments to get a feel for what is going on.
Tom
Tom
Nickrosis
Manned by Boderators
We don't have much in the way of departments, really. Besides the tree side and the landscape side.... But that's because we have a tenth of the staff.
I would want to find out what they want to do - research of tree topics, study business practices, etc.... I'd be willing to work with all kinds of subjects.
I would want to find out what they want to do - research of tree topics, study business practices, etc.... I'd be willing to work with all kinds of subjects.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
The pic showed goop out as far, and next to, the callus. Shouldn't it be inside the callus, so it doesn't slow closure?
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Very good questions, keep em coming.... and if you're gonna quote me, please don't attach the end of one sentence to the beginning of an entirely different one, otherwise it doesn't say what I meant it to say. You're 'fuzzy' quote looked like this.
In answering Guy's question about the sealant being up against the callus, slowing closure.... what I'm proposing is this intervention CREATES closure. I know this is bold to say, but I will be as thorough as necessary in standing by the statement. Prevention, or arresting decay in trees is a topic of study I take very seriously.
Here's a facet of the experiment pointed out by Guy, of keeping the sealant inside the inner callus zone. Can anybody tell me what's wrong with this picture? This was a protruding stub. I surguried it down to a concave surface and applied the sealant. Yes, I touched cambium on the callus. The tree will forgive me on that. What's wrong with the application? Then we can move on to Guy's question about oxygen being in the wood, and another CODIT lesson and more on aerobic fungal biology.
TM,
The best solution for stopping decay is 100% moisture.
I'll be glad to blow this limiting defense out of the water.
My actual one said this:
In answering my own question, No. The tree does not create a bad situation for itself. That would be a lot of work in being counterproductive to its own health and survival. Evolution selects against that sort of thing.
In answering Guy's question about the sealant being up against the callus, slowing closure.... what I'm proposing is this intervention CREATES closure. I know this is bold to say, but I will be as thorough as necessary in standing by the statement. Prevention, or arresting decay in trees is a topic of study I take very seriously.
Here's a facet of the experiment pointed out by Guy, of keeping the sealant inside the inner callus zone. Can anybody tell me what's wrong with this picture? This was a protruding stub. I surguried it down to a concave surface and applied the sealant. Yes, I touched cambium on the callus. The tree will forgive me on that. What's wrong with the application? Then we can move on to Guy's question about oxygen being in the wood, and another CODIT lesson and more on aerobic fungal biology.
TM,
The best solution for stopping decay is 100% moisture.
I'll be glad to blow this limiting defense out of the water.
Last edited:
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Nickrosis
Manned by Boderators
Yeah, don't cut into woundwood! We can't all be creative in our tree work habits and say it's ok because we've got anecdotal experience to back it up! There are reasons for having experiments and trials. And if you're going to conduct this on jobsites, I believe the customer should be appraised beforehand and dually compensated.
Yes, I started my last sentence with a conjunction, but I think the grammar gods will pardon me.
Yes, I started my last sentence with a conjunction, but I think the grammar gods will pardon me.
Nickrosis
Manned by Boderators
And I am an expert on the topic of nicking. I can show you my driver's license.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
We all know that in plant systems, wounding stimulates cell division, that is a plant's defense. I nicked the wound tissue, and that is not right, I'm not going to defend myself. I will say that I've excavated a number of cavities over the years, nicked wound tissue and come back years later to inspect the same cavity, noting that the callus had recovered and was moving along fine. I, too, cringe when I touch callus.
Actually, I don't much like cutting off limbs at all, because when I do, there's Mike Maas on my left shoulder, and Guy Mueller on my right watching EVERY move I make. Keeps me righteous with the tree.
And Nicrosis,... compensate my customers? Experiments and trials are expensive, long-term and involve graduate students who would need to climb trees to view the hundreds of trial cavities and then years later dissect the trees to see the result inside.
Who, in the near future is going to do this research? Who will pay for it? Why would anyone outside of our arborist community care? Of what economic value is it to anyone?
I am not a frickin renegade cowboy. I have a deep and passionate interest in trees and have seen too many unchecked cavities worsen and enlarge. After dissecting hundreds of trees, paying special attention to the cross-section through cavities and having run a commercial mycology lab for almost three years, I don't see many graduate students, or professors quite as able, or motivated, to do this work.
We can go back and forth. Some people like to talk and feel like they're doing something. Some people do something, and then talk, and progress. I didn't put my head up here on the chopping block for glory, attention or approval. I have seen little progress in cavity filling since the demise of the concrete and tar paper guys.
This is not the first thread on this topic, but excuse me for actually stepping forward in attempting a progressive treatment, starting with the worst, up-welled decaying cavities. If you think cavity filling as a treatment is somehow invasive, explain this commonly used treatment....
p.s. this tree died
Actually, I don't much like cutting off limbs at all, because when I do, there's Mike Maas on my left shoulder, and Guy Mueller on my right watching EVERY move I make. Keeps me righteous with the tree.
And Nicrosis,... compensate my customers? Experiments and trials are expensive, long-term and involve graduate students who would need to climb trees to view the hundreds of trial cavities and then years later dissect the trees to see the result inside.
Who, in the near future is going to do this research? Who will pay for it? Why would anyone outside of our arborist community care? Of what economic value is it to anyone?
I am not a frickin renegade cowboy. I have a deep and passionate interest in trees and have seen too many unchecked cavities worsen and enlarge. After dissecting hundreds of trees, paying special attention to the cross-section through cavities and having run a commercial mycology lab for almost three years, I don't see many graduate students, or professors quite as able, or motivated, to do this work.
We can go back and forth. Some people like to talk and feel like they're doing something. Some people do something, and then talk, and progress. I didn't put my head up here on the chopping block for glory, attention or approval. I have seen little progress in cavity filling since the demise of the concrete and tar paper guys.
This is not the first thread on this topic, but excuse me for actually stepping forward in attempting a progressive treatment, starting with the worst, up-welled decaying cavities. If you think cavity filling as a treatment is somehow invasive, explain this commonly used treatment....
p.s. this tree died
Nickrosis
Manned by Boderators
Very good points. And Shigo did many of the things you described and wrote at length as we've all read. The money is there, the TreeFund has to start sending it in the right directions, and we should be pooling resources with other groups that are concerned about the same thing. Shigo, for example, came out of the wood products side in his research of decay.
I know what you're saying about research, and I think you're right about it not being something many people will do. I for one cannot do that. But to be conclusive, you have to be. Or you have to rely on others' research and draw your own conclusions. But to experiment without the controls set up is not going to deliver the concrete results we need. So short of that, I'm going to continue based on the hard facts presented by Shigo.
And to differ from that, you have to disclaimer things as experimental or accidental. From my perception of this thread, I thought you were showing this as a proper tree care method and not just toying around with something different. Maybe I'm still not concluding correctly...
I know what you're saying about research, and I think you're right about it not being something many people will do. I for one cannot do that. But to be conclusive, you have to be. Or you have to rely on others' research and draw your own conclusions. But to experiment without the controls set up is not going to deliver the concrete results we need. So short of that, I'm going to continue based on the hard facts presented by Shigo.
And to differ from that, you have to disclaimer things as experimental or accidental. From my perception of this thread, I thought you were showing this as a proper tree care method and not just toying around with something different. Maybe I'm still not concluding correctly...
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
TM,
The best solution for stopping decay is 100% moisture.
I'll be glad to blow this limiting defense out of the water.
Well...
How do you balance decay with underwater logging? How about the wood foundations taken out of port cities?
Or were you making a pun?
Tom
The best solution for stopping decay is 100% moisture.
I'll be glad to blow this limiting defense out of the water.
Well...
How do you balance decay with underwater logging? How about the wood foundations taken out of port cities?
Or were you making a pun?
Tom
Nickrosis
Manned by Boderators
Underwater logging? It took me a full 10 seconds to recall that submarine operation..... Thanx.
Air or water submersion, it's more about the organisms in the air and water than the medium itself. If you have sterile air or water, it's going to prevent decay. But where will you find that??
xander9727
The Silverback
In a hospital of course! Think Nick think! Just transplant the tree to a hospital and wa la the problem is solved.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Compensate customers whose trees are cared for in an experimental way? Boy, that's whack--it works the other way, if anything. No authority looked at branch protection zones at nodes without laterals, but they are there.
People who had ice damage treated with heading cuts instead of removal were GLAD to have it done. they will pay extra for the followup pruning, for the results of healthy and well-balanced trees.
A lot of the "research" that directs our BMP's is nothing more than observations made by someone who had a connection to the govt or a U to lend authority and pay for the printing.
How do you do a controlled experiment on mature trees? Gilman et al use little trees to get results in just a few years, and keep the costs out of the stratosphere. I plan to stub back some little white oaks to barren nodes, and others to laterals, and leaving some as controls, this winter. If the hours and brainstrain get compensated by a grant, great. But in the end, how well do the results translate to older trees? Your guess is as good as mine.
TM, keep up the good work and trying new things. I don't think nicking callus is always the end of the world, but I've seen disease advance thru those types of wounds. There are authoritative folks out there who are anti-field experimental, which mike and I are not. If you think WE'RE jumping on you, just wait til you get squashed by those big boys. I'll PM you the footprints on my behind sometime, if you want to see em.
Now where were we? I support your work--a sealant that stops cracking and does not impede closure sounds beneficial, but what about the inner H2O and O2?
People who had ice damage treated with heading cuts instead of removal were GLAD to have it done. they will pay extra for the followup pruning, for the results of healthy and well-balanced trees.
A lot of the "research" that directs our BMP's is nothing more than observations made by someone who had a connection to the govt or a U to lend authority and pay for the printing.
How do you do a controlled experiment on mature trees? Gilman et al use little trees to get results in just a few years, and keep the costs out of the stratosphere. I plan to stub back some little white oaks to barren nodes, and others to laterals, and leaving some as controls, this winter. If the hours and brainstrain get compensated by a grant, great. But in the end, how well do the results translate to older trees? Your guess is as good as mine.
TM, keep up the good work and trying new things. I don't think nicking callus is always the end of the world, but I've seen disease advance thru those types of wounds. There are authoritative folks out there who are anti-field experimental, which mike and I are not. If you think WE'RE jumping on you, just wait til you get squashed by those big boys. I'll PM you the footprints on my behind sometime, if you want to see em.
Now where were we? I support your work--a sealant that stops cracking and does not impede closure sounds beneficial, but what about the inner H2O and O2?
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Thank you, Guy
Let me start with Tom and decay and 100% moisture. Like when a ship goes down that was carrying a load of cargo, like the old wooden ships, the Spansh Galleons downed in Florida waters (???? hurricanes!) No remants of the ship, but we'll attribite that to its parts floating away. What about the treasure chest? Why when Mel the treasure hunter guy found the mother lode from the Atocha, was it all in a pile on the ocean floor? Where was the chest? Wood does not last very long in warm, shallow marine waters, but that's another story.
Why are boats primarily made out of material other than wood? Hmmm just a question to ponder.
But on to Tom's question about underwater logging? Well, I see logs and other tree parts in streams and rivers and they decompose.... oh but you're talking about ships carrying logs that spilled their cargo, or went down. You will not get decomposition for a number of reasons. Foremost, deep down underwater there's this thing called hydrostatic pressure, where the pressure gets huge the deeper you go. Fungus simply has not evolved under conditions anything like this. The pressure alone will kill it.
How much sunlight is there, down deep? There's a myth that mushrooms grow in total darkness, which is both a wive's tale and false, with exceptions in the lower fungi (yeast, molds, etc). Higher fungi (produces mushrooms, or fruiting bodies) have evolved over billions of years with this really regular diurnal rhythm of nighttime-daytime. This, as far as I know, has been rather constant, for the last billion or two years and the fungi have evolved under those condition, not underwater where beyond 50 meters deep, sunlight, for all practical purposes is nonexistant. Mycelium can grow in the dark, but to complete the reproductive cycle, light is a must.
Temperature. How warm do you think it is a meter off the bottom of Lake Superior, or any freshwater lake or saltwater body? Probably cold. Fungi, in their normal environment, have evolved with varying temperatures. They depend on those fluctuations for their development, partly the reason you see mushrooms pop up overnight (cooler temps) or some that fruit only in the Fall (cool snap, after the Summer heat). Mushrooms, with few exceptions (notably Enoki, (Flammulina velitipes)) do not thrive in the cold, cold conditions. It takes a warming up for the dormant mycelium to revive and continue the decay process. On the bottom of a highly pressurized, dark, submarine world, the temperature does not fluctuate much. It's like a perpetual refrigerator.
So, there's no need to go into the fact that actual reproductive fruit bodies (the mushrooms themselves) can not develop and cast spores deep down underwater, pretty much bringing reproduction to a grinding halt. I doubt, also, that there's abundant oxygen down deep, but I only know certain things about the deep marine environment, and how much or little oxygen there is, is only a guess. I will leave the topic of oxygen for another post.
Any questions so far as to why one can say "100% moisture will prevent decay" and how they could substantiate their point and actually be right? OK, lets move into a land-based environment in conditions that are more realistic to what we're working with.
Let me start with Tom and decay and 100% moisture. Like when a ship goes down that was carrying a load of cargo, like the old wooden ships, the Spansh Galleons downed in Florida waters (???? hurricanes!) No remants of the ship, but we'll attribite that to its parts floating away. What about the treasure chest? Why when Mel the treasure hunter guy found the mother lode from the Atocha, was it all in a pile on the ocean floor? Where was the chest? Wood does not last very long in warm, shallow marine waters, but that's another story.
Why are boats primarily made out of material other than wood? Hmmm just a question to ponder.
But on to Tom's question about underwater logging? Well, I see logs and other tree parts in streams and rivers and they decompose.... oh but you're talking about ships carrying logs that spilled their cargo, or went down. You will not get decomposition for a number of reasons. Foremost, deep down underwater there's this thing called hydrostatic pressure, where the pressure gets huge the deeper you go. Fungus simply has not evolved under conditions anything like this. The pressure alone will kill it.
How much sunlight is there, down deep? There's a myth that mushrooms grow in total darkness, which is both a wive's tale and false, with exceptions in the lower fungi (yeast, molds, etc). Higher fungi (produces mushrooms, or fruiting bodies) have evolved over billions of years with this really regular diurnal rhythm of nighttime-daytime. This, as far as I know, has been rather constant, for the last billion or two years and the fungi have evolved under those condition, not underwater where beyond 50 meters deep, sunlight, for all practical purposes is nonexistant. Mycelium can grow in the dark, but to complete the reproductive cycle, light is a must.
Temperature. How warm do you think it is a meter off the bottom of Lake Superior, or any freshwater lake or saltwater body? Probably cold. Fungi, in their normal environment, have evolved with varying temperatures. They depend on those fluctuations for their development, partly the reason you see mushrooms pop up overnight (cooler temps) or some that fruit only in the Fall (cool snap, after the Summer heat). Mushrooms, with few exceptions (notably Enoki, (Flammulina velitipes)) do not thrive in the cold, cold conditions. It takes a warming up for the dormant mycelium to revive and continue the decay process. On the bottom of a highly pressurized, dark, submarine world, the temperature does not fluctuate much. It's like a perpetual refrigerator.
So, there's no need to go into the fact that actual reproductive fruit bodies (the mushrooms themselves) can not develop and cast spores deep down underwater, pretty much bringing reproduction to a grinding halt. I doubt, also, that there's abundant oxygen down deep, but I only know certain things about the deep marine environment, and how much or little oxygen there is, is only a guess. I will leave the topic of oxygen for another post.
Any questions so far as to why one can say "100% moisture will prevent decay" and how they could substantiate their point and actually be right? OK, lets move into a land-based environment in conditions that are more realistic to what we're working with.
Nickrosis
Manned by Boderators
That's not nice, and it's not true. If someone came out to my property to do some plumbing work and proceeded to use regular adhesive for one pipe, some peanut butter for another, and a special concoction for another and charged me for the service, I would be left feeling ripped off. If someone came out and said, I'd like to try out some new adhesives, can I do this service for free? I would be listening.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
TM, why is the prognosis bad on the cavity? Did you measure it, are there cracks, what?
Nick, it is VERY nice to let customers contribute to experimentation on their trees. They do not want them treated in the "regular" way, because they understand that regular is not always right. Concrete in cavities and asphalt pruning paint used to be regular tree service. Should those arborists who went against those norms have worked for free?
I know you just went thru 4 years at the U, learning the regular ways and the science behind them.That's a good thing, but there is room and reason for questioning those ways that do not seem to always make sense or work well.
I agree with you about disclaimers; the client should understand all the options, and be in on the decision to try something "irregular".
Nick, it is VERY nice to let customers contribute to experimentation on their trees. They do not want them treated in the "regular" way, because they understand that regular is not always right. Concrete in cavities and asphalt pruning paint used to be regular tree service. Should those arborists who went against those norms have worked for free?
I know you just went thru 4 years at the U, learning the regular ways and the science behind them.That's a good thing, but there is room and reason for questioning those ways that do not seem to always make sense or work well.
I agree with you about disclaimers; the client should understand all the options, and be in on the decision to try something "irregular".
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
pooling water, no need to measure anything
I have seen cavities of all different sizes, and trees that were entirely hollow. They all share one commonality; the fungus progressed faster than the tree could fully compartmentalize around the original wound site.
It was once just a flat wound site from a limb removal. Then the surface started decaying. Than a small cavity formed. Water pooled and the cavity grew larger. Water still pools in there and if I were to extrapolate into the future I would see water continuing to pool, and likely the cavity getting even larger. Because of this, alone, I would say, prognosis bad. The fact that it is hackberry doesn't help its own situation.
I have seen cavities of all different sizes, and trees that were entirely hollow. They all share one commonality; the fungus progressed faster than the tree could fully compartmentalize around the original wound site.
Nickrosis
Manned by Boderators
Well, we've got some value differences here... Personally, I'm not a fan of alternative medicine in human health.care - something spilling over into my attitude about plant health care. Not that I prefer to pop pills, but I prefer nutrition and exercise with conventional medicine versus with alternative treatments.
Think this through with me, please. Alternative or experimental does not automatically equal better! Maybe the peanut butter adhesive is better, but likely not.
Certainly, there are more promising experiments than others, but experimental hogwash is hogwash beginning to end.
No poo-pooing needed here. I know enough to question what I hear. I'm cautioning against using customers as guinea pigs. Yes, it may be what they want, and it may be better than convention. But frame it in that context.
