Sealing Wounds?

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Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
Me too, Nickster. That's why I experiment with fighting fungus; because the most definitive information is what we do ourselves, and personally witness the results.
I can't agree with you on that definition of definitive. :D It's not your eyeballs. It's having 100 eyeballs and more. It's statistic analysis. It's determining if the improvements you're seeing are significant and if they're the result of the variable(s) you're testing.

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
When will there ever be definitive scientific research on the decay of large wounds? Never--too many variables, too long a time period, too little funding. I can't sit on my aspirations for respectable professionalism by going by the book, and watch hellplessly as the inevitable rot happens.
Youthful optimism and patience is a blessing for me here, apparently. I see so many great developments building that I know we're going to see more of this. It's happening already. But the key to this, and I really believe it, is partnering with other industries and groups that also think the topic of decay is important.

Think a wood products firm cares about decay? Think the Forest Service would give an ear? Think that the TreeFund has tree research as a goal? Think arborists around the world are interested?

Spread the cheer.
 
How do you measure "worse"?

Callous development?
Wound closure?

Until anyone can duplicate your results, they're anecdotal.

Has the decay changed on the inside?

When looking at hazard trees the size of the wound or decay isn't the issue. It's the ratio to sound wood. A five inch wound to the Treehouse Tree that was pruned in CA last year is neglibible. That same five inch wound on a 5 1/2" limb wound have a significant impact on the limb, but not the tree.

Shigo has addressed both of those issues. It's what's going on inside that matters. Look at the lives of the "Desperate Housewifes", smiling on the outside and crying on the inside :) This observation is from watching DW in three minute clips over about 45 minutes...
 
Originally posted by netree


Sidestep: In my experience, a cavity will usually develop in pruning cuts over 5 inches or so. The callus simply doesn't form fast enough to cover the wound. It's also my experience, being someone who actually does alot of removals, that such cavities end up being a failure point down the road more often than not.



This may be totally nitpicky and besides the point, but I think that cavity and callous formation rates are variable among species and environments. There are some species of trees that will easily callous over a 5" wound before a cavity can form. Also remember that a cavity only becomes a concern if it breaks through the original CODIT walls. Some species of trees are very good at containing decay. Others are not.
 
Originally posted by netree
Neither nitpicky OR beside the point, Leon. A valid observation.
Not to be neither nitpicky nor beside the point, but one should use "nor" as a conjunction when using neither.
 
Erik wrote:

Sidestep: In my experience, a cavity will usually develop in pruning cuts over 5 inches or so. The callus simply doesn't form fast enough to cover the wound. It's also my experience, being someone who actually does alot of removals, that such cavities end up being a failure point down the road more often than not.

If the tree failed at a decay point it was a hazard tree in my book.

I think that there is a graph in one of Shigo's books that shows the race between containment and closure.

I do agree with you on wound size in some trees. When I was working in MN I really resisted making a cut bigger than 5" on a silver maple or basswood/linden. The race between containment and decay would generally be won by decay. And this was on any size SM limb/trunk. Now, if I had to make the same cut on a similar sized white/burr oak or maybe even an elm I'd be more comfortable. Those species had a better chance of winning the battle with decay.
 
I've gotta catch some zzz's, but I do want to say that I think this thread is bringing up great discussion points. Many times, I wish we would talk about some of these things....and even though they are near and dear to our hearts....."tree values" if you will....they are topics that should be discussed if we are to progress as a profession.

I can honestly say that my heart beats a little faster opening up this thread (and waiting for it to load on my 200 MHz machine with an 802.11b connection on a 320x240 screen). I'm excited to see what people are saying and more than happy to share myself.
 
I have a question about your experiments with sealants, Erik.

As Tom said the key is what is going on inside the tree. Although the trees with the sealants do not exhibit cavities, doesn't the possibillity exist that decay is still spreading inside the tree at the same rate as those trees with visible cavities? It's just that the decayed wood doesn't have anywhere to go when it's all sealed up. Of course, decayed wood is stronger than no wood, but I think it would still be important to know.

Have you been able to make any observations about this, or will we have to wait until the trees come down?


I hope this question makes sense...
 
worms and there castings will exelerate growth in just about everything,wouldnt exelrating a trees growth help heal wounds its all in the worms :blob2:
 
Originally posted by aussie_lopa
wouldnt exelrating a trees growth help heal wounds its all in the worms
lopa, increased nitrogen feeds the fungus as it fertilizes the tree.

Erik, I don't understand the aversion to networking with the traditional scientific community. How else is cavity work going to be anything beyond some isolated cranks in MA, IN, NC etc. gathering anecdotal experience?

Personal and mutual gratification of the sort you describe may or may not happen, but it is beside the point. The understanding and validation that comes from comparing experience and observations with other is the point; the valid point Nick made. I'd much rather die knowing I connected with others to the evolution of my industry than to know in my heart I was right but be unable to show that to others.

There must be a way to get together on this. "I've read in one of Shigo's works that he says that the dressings available at the time didn't curtail decay. That doesn't mean there isn't something to be developed." Science should never sleep.
 
Originally posted by Tree Machine
Paint has been the 'sealant' of choice, and is where all the research has been done. Paint is not much of a sealant. It's a thin coating which peels with time, especially if there is no primer.

Bear in mind when applying paint or tar-based dressings, we're applying to a porous surface, not a sheet of steel.

I think that's why it doesn't work; in order to be effective, one would have to apply more than one coat- perhaps five or more- to fully make the surface NON-porous.

Allowing proper (and recommended) drying time between coats, I don't see where that would be even remotely practical for anyone outside of your own trees on your own property.
 
Originally posted by xander9727
There you go again Erik, trying to be practical.

Yeah, I know... I keep trying to quit using common sense, but I'm addicted to it. Thankfully, it's a rare affliction these days...
 
Originally posted by netree
I love the way you say "crank".:p
Ooo, you savage!

Worship without question is far more quackery then "anecdotal experience".
I agree 100%.

And if "some isolated cranks in MA, IN, NC etc. gathering anecdotal experience" all produce the same beneficial result, doesn't it lend credibility to the practice?
For me and many people, definitely, but not enough for Nick and many others. Anecdotes may agree with other anecdotes, but unless it's more formally tested and documented it'll still be anecdotal. :(

If all this work by field scientists like you and TM is done in harmony with lab scientists somewhere and published somehow, it would be far more persuasive. Nothing wrong with saying that, is there? Easy now fella.
 
But Guy... the experiments have to be done to get there, don't they?

Simply dismissing the notion as quackery before more scientific tests can be arranged/accomplished just doesn't work for me.

I would say so far it sure looks promising...

The only way to prove or disprove is to try and see.

I'm sure many thought Shigo was a quack before he became "accepted".

Point being, even anecdotal proof should be enough to convince you it's worthy of further investigation.

Don't shoot the salesman before you see what he's selling. ;)

That's my issue with "accepted" scientific community; close-mindedness to daring to try something new or different, no matter how silly it may sound at first.

If you went back in time 100 years, people would think you were a few cans short of a six-pack if you told them what we have and have done by '04.
 
Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
lopa, increased nitrogen feeds the fungus as it fertilizes the tree.

and???so what ,where not talking fungi were talking healing,would you rather try your witch doctoring on a wilting dieback :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
 
Ossijinn

I think that's why it doesn't work; in order to be effective, one would have to apply more than one coat- perhaps five or more- to fully make the surface NON-porous.

That was my thought, having seen painted wounds from arborists of the past. As I picked at the 'sealant' and inspected, the edges, near the callus usually were curled and peeling. I'm not sure how the stuff holds up to moisture, UV rays, freeze-thaw cycles and the movement of the callus.

Completely filling and creating an absolute seal is the basis for my thinking we can arrest decay. I don't feel that sealants of the past did this effectively. If there is the ability for air to enter into the wound site, I believe that success will not be possible. Here is my oxygen schpeel.

We've ascertained that fungus is an aerobic plant. It has no chlorophyll, like other plants, so it does not practice photosynthesis. It does not, therefore, take CO2 and the energy from sunlight and create carbohydrates, proteins and fat. It is very much the reverse.

Fungi, as a family, get their energy from the carbon source, cellulose, of which wood is mostly made. Certain fungi have even been shown to be able to feed on hydrocarbons as a carbon source, and are used industrially to detoxify contaminated spill sites. This fact, alone, forces me to question using tar as a wound sealant.

Anyway, the fungus also uptakes nitrogen in the food source to biofabricate the enzymes, which are the true work horses of the fungus. The fungus, with their powerful enzymes, degrade cellulose and as a waste product, produce carbon dioxide. This is essentially a fermentation reaction, though most of us have a view of fermentation quite different, but also involving a fungus called yeast. The reaction is quite the same, however. Carbohydrates are broken down, with carbon dioxide being one of the biochemical 'waste' products.

Here's where full, complete sealing 'SEEMS' to make sense. From a purely scientific standpoint, this is my hypothesis (educated guess).

Fungus is a consumer of oxygen, and a producer of carbon dioxide. If we were able to encapsulate the fungus inside the tree, effectively cutting off the free source of oxygen (ie Air) this would seem limiting to the expansion and growth of the fungal body. There may be some available oxygen within the wood, but the fungus, I feel, will consume it faster than it can be replenished. Also, carbon dioxide levels will rise as oxygen levels fall, and the seal would prevent escape of the carbon dioxide.

Fungal growth, in this hypothetical scenario, will be arrested by virtue of cutting off it's necessary raw material (oxygen), and essentially smothering it in its own waste product (carbon dioxide).

That's the scientific hip I'm shooting from. It makes sense, and is proven, but just not in a tree cavity. The obstacle to overcome in giving this a go would be to have a product that could create an absolute sealing barrier, one that would withstand large temperature fluctuations, ultraviolet radiation, rain and must also be non-toxic to the tree and callus. As well, it would have to be able to remain intact for 10, 20, 50 years. Lastly, it would have to be applied in a manner that disallowed any air exchange (no leaks).

Will it work? That is, as they say, the $64,000 question.
 
Originally posted by aussie_lopa
[ increased nitrogen feeds the fungus as it fertilizes the tree.
so what ,where not talking fungi were talking healing,
Can't talk about one without the other. Stimulating bark to grow while also stimulating fungi to kill the bark seems a little pointless, doesn't it?:confused:

I've seen landmark trees done in by that kind of treatment. :eek:

It's a tricky proposition, managing nutrition and disease at the same time. Balance, Jason-san:)
 
Nutrition plays a marital role in tree vigor, and ultimately, tree vigor may be the most important aspect of a tree's defense.
 

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