Sealing Wounds?

[Nickrosis]

Thanks, Leon.

I'm lining up a wounding study over here myself. Yes, it takes a long time, but I have the years and the resources to do it. Whaddya say to that? Naysayers!

 

[Tree Machine]

Thanks for stepping forward, Leon. Thank you Nicrosis.

I'm getting the feeling that we're at least aligned in that post-wounding decay is a problem, and that either preventing or arresting that decay is desirable. I believe we represent mebbe the only population that would care about this, or are even remotely aware that it's an issue. So, for the problem to be solved, the trees are more or less counting on us.

Leon has a solid point, that of needing a Principal Investigator, and backing money for that source to coordinate the effort. Might I propose a suggestion? Ask Dr Shigo about whom he would suggest. Ask him for a referral. There is the remote chance that there is a current investigation desperately seeking a group such as ourselves for field support. As I say, remote chance, but, there may also be a previous investigator who might wish to take another stab at it, given the new approach and set of conditions.

Once the preliminaries are established (who, what, where, when, why and how much money is available to fund the project), then the foundation of the research is built upon collection of all prior and related studies. Again, Dr Shigo may be willing to forward us his amassed reference bibliography. I know he's not in the thick as much as during his core years, but my feeling is that he would be interested in catalyzing our progress.

Fortunately this is not stand-alone research to be built from the ground, up. We are able to build upon the shoulders of giants.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by rumination

I would be more than willing to devote a part of my work and spare time to such a project.

So Leon, does this mean that the Lyon is roaring again? Last I heard it was caged. Are longterm (and we're talking over 3 years here) relations good enough with the U to start any work on that site?

Sidetrack--It'd be nice to prevent decay on those Albizia$; any thought to TGR's on those?

And Nick--have you found an academic advisor for those wounding studies?

 

[rumination]

Guy, Lyon is still not open to the public. However, the U has expressed interest in stimulating research at the Arboretum. They are interested in any grant money it would generate, of course. (Universities usually take a percentage of grant funds for projects done under their auspices)





As for TGRs, a friend of mine is currently conducting experiments with cambistat on albizia and several other species at the moment. Should be another 9 months or so before definitive results are in.

 

[Nickrosis]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
And Nick--have you found an academic advisor for those wounding studies?

Not really looking for one.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Nickrosis
Not really looking for one.

"Doesn't have to be in an institution, of course. But it certainly helps to have the resources of it. And it's easier to find impartiality."

Consistency?

 

[Nickrosis]

Well consider that I am a full-time student.

If I was at a university with a professor in a related field, it would be much easier for me. For now, though, I don't need to apply for a grant and don't need to get someone to commit as a PI. But whenever I do research projects, I know which profs to call for setting up design parameters.

And by the time this is done, I will have a PhD.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Nickrosis
I'm lining up a wounding study over here myself... For now, though, I don't need to get someone to commit as a PI. But whenever I do research projects, I know which profs to call

Huh? Are you or aren't you? Calling them is one thing; getting them to give the right answers is quite another.

"And by the time this is done, I will have a PhD."

Yes, Pile it high and Deep enough and you will get a Post-hole Digger. And that will be worth...

 

[Nickrosis]

What will I need a PI for? PIs are for getting grant money which I don't need. Of course I will be getting input on this and of course a university will be involved. But I don't need a PI, I just need an intern and an advisor for the intern. Then an intern for the next year, and the next year, and the next.....

But let's back up. What's the null hypothesis we are trying to test? "We know" that wound dressings are at best insignificant. I say "we know" because that is the current belief that you would have to disprove. So the onus is on you, Guy and fellow NEWTS, to disprove the present reasoning. My hope is to find out more information about wounding and wound response, not to try to prove the null hypothesis false because I believe that would be a waste of time.

 

[Elmore]

I have doubts as to the unity among the participants of this dialogue. Several groups have formed in relationship to the order of NEWTS ... HAHA (Horticulturists Assigned to Help Arborists), HOHUM (Horticulturists Organizing Help for Urban Managers) and HEEHAW (Horticulturists Earnestly Endeavoring to Help Arboricultural Workers). As founder and chief operating manager of these organizations, I have been in communications with the members and I have grave concerns as to the future progress in the sharing of information regarding control of wood decay. These concerns are due to a recent lack of co-operation and cohesiveness showing among various factions within NEWTS. Perhaps research and dialogue in regard to wood decay can continue among the various individual groups but I feel that the sharing of principals and the results of research and trials undertaken to improve tree work will surely be hampered. This lack of empathy towards co-operative efforts in improving techniques seems to be coming, primarily, from individuals who by the nature of their past responses, had been caught up in the "Red State" ideology and since a mandate has been established and the Bush administration has made secrecy its default position perhaps a similar position should be established right here in the private sector. The culture of secrecy in government is not unlike the culture of secrecy in many areas outside of government. People know that information is related to power, and often they want to control information, in order to enhance their own power. So new rules may restrict access to confidential trade secrets and your right to know. Perhaps an ownership society is a wonderful idea after all. Maybe Guy will help with the costs of a patent if I make him a partner.

 

[xander9727]

Looks like someone else needs a tinfoil lid. Try the dapper, it really makes you look sofisticated.

 

[a_lopa]

maybe a citronella based sealant would work ok

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Nickrosis
What's the null hypothesis we are trying to test? "We know" that wound dressings are at best insignificant. I say "we know" because that is the current belief that you would have to disprove.

That's not the aim. The goal would be to prove a positive, not to disprove a negative. The "current belief" you're talking about is a sociological figment; a great generalization that is not a starting point, just a departing point. Why pay it any mind?

Science and sociology don't mix well, do they?

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by aussie_lopa
maybe a citronella based sealant would work ok

lopa yes blending in a botanical oil is something to consider.

 

[Reed]

This reminds me of the study that was mired in approvals for five years before implementation. It involved disagreements on the protocols relating to sample procurements and validity of observations based on the language of classifications not yet standardized.

It was intended to be the blue-ribbon collection of evidence that would indicate if oak wilt was killing trees South of the Mason Dixon line. "Decline" was the suggested invader (diosporii) but wasn't considered pathogenic. Layman's evidence indicated an epidemic yet academia intervened and insisted "no, impossible".

Reality proved otherwise, careers were admonished (or if not, should've been). What is now the most costly hardwood disease epidemic in American forest history can be simply traced back to the ignorance of certain then-qualified individuals and that intervention at the early stage would've established perimeters similar to fire lines ahead of rolling incendiary events.

All the destruction could've been avoided. To carry it further, the misguided attempts to correct the growing die-offs based on current knowledge, inventions included the use of compounds to alter the invader we know today to have embedded abilities to mutate itself around attempts to sterilize it's virulence.

Not necessarily idiocy in it's finer definitions, but arrogance in the extreme. A lot like a Christian oilman in charge of a war against a nation and it's opposing beliefs. WE restrict research to those who design the limitations, thus the results.

I'm half-way through a field study (reaking of allegory and circumstance) on the merits of a phermone-copy deterrent applied to wounds in a very active vectoring environment which results of such may apply an area-disease management logic appropriate to the needs of demand. Not replication but vangaard attempt. Minus academia.

Just a short story of caution when limiting the thrust of questions through the filters of conventional thought. It's convention afterall, that has us responding to global hatred by hating them back.

 

[Elmore]

heh heh yeah!

Originally posted by xander9727
Looks like someone else needs a tinfoil lid. Try the dapper, it really makes you look sofisticated.

<img src="http://www.adalib.org/pathfinder-attl_raccoon.gif">
<img src="http://www.evl.uic.edu/caylor/GIFS/CARTOONS/raccoon_P1.gif"width=450><img src="http://www.econedlink.org/lessons/EM314/images/hunter.gif">

 

[ArtifexArboreus]

I find that a cocktail of Deisel fuel and concrete is best for sealing after cuts and work wonders for filling cavities. If anyone is interested in my recipe, feel free to give me a call @ 1-800-dumb-ass.

There is no proven benefit to sealing wounds. Ask anyone who knows anything about this business and they will tell you the same. If they say different, then you aren't following my instructions above, "Ask anyone who knows anything about this business."

If your still sealing wounds, you are wrong. If you maintain that it is proper, then you are uneducated. I suggest reading a book, not listning to what some old-timer told you.

Remember, sealing a wound is BAD BAD BAD.

Mr. Blaster, sealing under your pits b4 a long work day is GOOD, GOOD, GOOD.

 

[xander9727]

AA,
Please tell me that wasn't your best attempt at writing a thread advocating education.

 

[xander9727]

Re: heh heh yeah!

Originally posted by Elmore
[B [/B]

Elmore,
If you're looking for a coonskin cap I may be able to Stihl you one.

 

[Tree Machine]

AA's just trolling for a reaction

Artifex, I can't really tell if you're being honest, or deliberately sarcastic.

The question is not whether or not former attempts at preventing or arresting cavity development have worked. Those research attempts have shown one thing; that those methods tested didn't prove beneficial. This is of benefit to us, as we know not to try those methods again. Asking old timers won't help, nor will asking new timers. They're all working with essentially the same information.

There is no proven benefit to sealing wounds. Ask anyone who knows anything about this business and they will tell you the same.

We pretty much established that 8 or 9 pages ago. We already know what the benefit would be; we are just trying to figure out how to get there.

If your still sealing wounds, you are wrong. If you maintain that it is proper, then you are uneducated.

If you are sealing wounds with products that have been disproven, of course you are wrong. Education has nothing to do with it, and reading a book on the subject will only tell us what we already know.

I know you're just kidding. That's because someone just like you, a hundred years ago said, "There's no cure for polio, there's no stopping the plague, powered flight is not possible!"

Where we're going with this is beyond what's been done, into the realm of what's not been done. There are surface wounds out there becoming absceses, abscesses becoming cavities, cavities becoming hollows, some leading to early tree demise and/or failure. Some of us feel that this sort of thing may be preventable.

Ignoring the wound sites doesn't seem to be slowing or stopping decay any better than applying tar, cement and paint, so what's a treeguy to do?

Hey, here's a nifty idea.... test some of the new-era cidal agents, static agents, high-tech sealants or other yet untested items, lac balsam, citronella, polyester epoxy resin or combinations thereof. We know if we do nothing, we'll keep getting what we're getting.

Some of us think there may be a simple, economically feasible preventative. To all you naysayers, here's a cud to chew: This is just tree science, not rocket science.