Sealing Wounds?

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if i was old n frail id want every bit of nutrition to fight off disease,i also have a worm farm that i enjoy,the nutrients that come outa there make anything thrive,its unreal what i can get them to munch throu,i make em kebabs with newspaper tied with bacon rind they love it,worms are the key to vigorous growth IMO maybe i like worms to much:cool:
 
Epoxy resin, is this the same as fiberglass resin? Is is flexible? Doesn't it get mixed, and it's a viscous liquid until it sets, and then it hardens? I'm not exactly sure what you're using, but am intrigued. More detail, please.
 
OK, I could see it as a sealer over a surface cut, since it is applied as a thick liquid, it would seep into the pores or cracks, but as far as filling a cavity, it would be a challenge to get it to adhere and stick to the top side of the cavity. I am not discounting the idea. I think it's an excellent suggestion.
 
Erik wrote:

That's my issue with "accepted" scientific community; close-mindedness to daring to try something new or different, no matter how silly it may sound at first.

Are they closed minded because they ask that you be able to replicate your findings? How do you prove what you claim? Proofs are the basis for science.

You might be onto something, using epoxy. I'm pretty skeptical though, but that's by nature, I'm a Capricorn :) You're right though, the real proof will be found when trees with the same wounds and conditions are dissected.

Do you know what Shigo's research path was at the beginning of his career?

Tom
 
Originally posted by netree
No. They're close-minded because the mere mention of an idea that doesn't fit within their neat mental "box" is automatically a point for ridicule;
Scientists are by nature skeptical; all skepticism is not ridicule. Yes some will mock anyone who's not in their crowd, so you must suffer fools gladly to be in the NEWTS. But in the end the data and the reasoning behind it will determine acceptance. btw, "anecdotal" does not mean "quackery"; it literally means "unpublished".

Erik I thought that rough-tough urban loggers had thick skin, but you're thounding kinda thenthitive there buddy. You even make a questioning colleague and your #1 fan out to be "adversarial".:rolleyes: O and Thanks for volunteering to be our fearless founder; you musta ghostwritten that post then eh??

You and Tom have unveiled the NEWTS biggest obstacle to proof, that until now you'd have to cut down the tree. Radar is getting cheaper; maybe we all can use it to measure cavities someday. For now, all NEWTS have to take the first step up from anecdotery: document when where what and how they are treating and sealing.
 
"Bacseal"

aussie_lopa, do you have access to a Bayer product called "Bacseal"? It may prove to be a product with some promise in this field. I have another plan of action, a recipe so to speak but am unsure if a mere horticulturist, primarily a grower of small trees, and his ideas and theories would be welcomed and accepted into this exclusive band of elite woodsmen called "NEWTS". I may want to register my process with the patent office first or maybe just keep it to myself. The more big trees that come down may mean more smaller ones being sold.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Elmore/Ginkgo/MayfieldchipbuddedJune20048-17-04resized.jpg"width=550>
 
Re: "Bacseal"

Elmore, I'm a Horticulturalist in Training, myself.

Why do ginkgos have a tendency to send out such low branches like that in greenhouses? I've seen that before...
 
Re: "Bacseal"

Originally posted by Elmore
I have another plan of action, a recipe so to speak but am unsure if a mere horticulturist,... ideas and theories would be welcomed and accepted into this exclusive band of elite woodsmen called "NEWTS".
Hey Brad guess what--you're in!:cool:

Forget the patent--too expensive to apply. Can we hear about your recipe? Anyone who :laugh: will have their membership revoked!

Is Bacseal only available in nz? that's where all the hits were. If we can't buy it in the US then we have to make our own from scratch huh?

Nick, this is the 3rd time you've tried to derail this thread. You'll be washing the blackboards after school if you keep that up...:blob2:
 
My reply

You guys are just being nice to this lowly horticulturist in order to obtain my secrets. heh heh :D

Nickrosis, "Why do ginkgos have a tendency to send out such low branches like that in greenhouses? I've seen that before..."
This is a spring budded 'Mayfield'. That low branch is the scion. I took a photo of that one because of it's initial growth response. Initial growth from most buds, almost all of them, usually are a simple whorl of leaves and remains so, for at least one season from that bud but this one immediately started to elongate. It is the only one that I have seen, so far, to have an immediate growth response like this. The other two pots show budded trees with the typical growth response. ' Mayfield by the way is a columnar male form, a fastigiate form, said to grow 30' x 8'. Cool :cool:

Guy, as far as I know "Bacseal" is only available in NZ & maybe Australia. The folks I have spoken to at Bayer USA don't even know what it is. It is usually used, down there in grafting citrus.
My secret recipe may be coming soon. Stay tuned :D
 
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Nice pictures. That defect may have exceeded the strength loss safety criteriaby a little bit, eh? Bad CODIT too.
 
Originally posted by netree
I believe a "cap" of epoxy could have prevented this.
Might've been worth a try...

But then, I wouldn't have advocated removing a healthy limb that large to begin with.
Careful now, or you'll be booted out of the BULLS--Brotherhood of Urban Logging Leprechauns.
 
Re: Re: "Bacseal"

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
Nick, this is the 3rd time you've tried to derail this thread. You'll be washing the blackboards after school if you keep that up...:blob2:
Dear me, I hope you're kidding.

What's a blackboard?
 
Good way to observe, Mr Firewood Splitter.

Mike Maas, all valid points, and all the widely varying points and arguments for and against are creating a boundless arena of infinite argument. Hang with me for a couple minutes.

Yesterday I took down 36" DBH beech tree. There were wound sites of all different sizes, and differing degrees of closure.

One thing I always have done when bucking limbs or logs into firewood is to cut ANY protruberance off flush with the log or limb. Other tree guys think I'm anal, but the firewood guys appreciate it, and it gives me a chance to see some of what's happening just inside the wound bulge, at least in one plane. I attempt to crosscut through, to get a view of another plane if the cavity falls on a crosscut.

It was an unusual day in that I had three guys helping me, actually one ground guy, and two guys there for the firewood. I grabbed my camera and was going to take some shots of these wound sites, before, and after cutting them off flush, but my camera was twinking out. Then the stump guys showed up. Desperately, I'm trying to pull off some shots with 5 guys watching me as I was narrating why I was doing what I was doing, as if anyone there could have cared.

No shots, but a realization set in. This would be very difficult information for ANYONE to collect and document, even if there were a protocol. For PhD's or grad students to collect the data they would need to coordinate schedules with an arborist, or by some impossible circunstance, BE an arborist. Then, the arborist would have to greatly slow his work schedule to accomodate the necessary communuication and allow the data collectors to do their thing, meaning it's costing the arborist money. It would have to be a special arborist.

In streamlining, meaning cutting out the grad students and professors (even if they WERE available) means the arborist would have to do the data collection himself, also costing him time. Much of the data collection would have to be photographic and there would have to be some consistency, rather a protocol, if this were to be data collection to be used for 'research'.

Even if there were a dozen NEWTS aligned and coordinated, I'm not so certain that we could develop a research protocol that would be recognized by a committee, academic or industrial. Research, especially if it is intended for publication, is very, very involved and goes so much further than designing an experiment with results that can be replicated. Without a formal, structured research plan, there will be no definitive results.

I bring this to light because the word research has been used in this thread, rather loosely, and I don't see it as practical Also, research takes work, time and costs money.

A number of doubters have cried, "anecdotal", but gentlemen, I believe that 'anecdotal' is as good as it's going to get. I don't see 'research-proven' being a reality. I think if we were to accept anecdotal as our 'data', over the course of time, 'generally agreed upon' might evolve into 'accepted industry practice'. There's just too many variables, interspecie differences, climate, original wound size, atmospheric spore loads and seasons during which the wound originated to get any sort of consistency. Plus, our results may take years or decades to prove themselves out, and only upon dissection of the tree would the results be observable, and only then possibly definitive.

This does not, however, mean that we are incapable of finding something that works amongst ourselves. It's just getting absolute, definitive, satisfying proof, I feel, is next to impossible, even if the method does work. This is because we will never have the 'research' to back it up; just anecdotal claims from professionals in the field. We might be best to accept that this may be as good as it will get.
 
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TM,

Great post!

You're right, anecdotal may be the best we can expect until there is money in the federal budget to support proper research.

In the history of arborculture book there is a lot written about the use of glop and gloop to fill cavities in the early part of the last century. After some of the tree surgeons started to observe the decay process. After gathering a lot of anecdotal info cavity work changed. It might be that we're in a place in time to look at the subject again. with the power of the Internet the NEWTS may be the medium to take things forward.

Tom
 
Thank you, Tom.

I would love to think that we, as an interconnected group, could solve this problem. All the hard work done up til this point has essentially yielded no good answers, no beneficial results.

Work in this area has been at rest for some time. Even in the prior work, the researchers have been isolated point groups, mostly academia.

We, with the help of the internet, are the world of arborists, not a handful of well-intentioned academicians where cavity filling with tar and paint was one of possibly dozens of other projects they had going on.

I really think we are the strongest possibility in finding a solution, as we are out there with our hands on trees, consistently, day after day, year after year. This alone, I think makes us possibly more qualified than anyone else on the planet to carry out the work.
 
I am an arborist working at a univeristy owned arboretum. One of the main purposes of the arboretum is research. I believe that at this arboretum are some of the necessary resources to conduct the kind of research that is being discussed here. Trees for wounding and dissection and space to plant more, are readily availiable. Trees grow much more quicly here (and decay more quickly too!), significantly shortening the necessary research time to get meaningful results.

I would be more than willing to devote a part of my work and spare time to such a project. I am by no means as experienced or knowledgeable an arborist as most involved in this discussion, but I am always interested in exploring and learning more. A group effort at defining the methodologies and parameters for the experiments would be both necessary and desirable.

OK, now for some nitty gritty stuff. To obtain most grants for research it is necessary to have a professor as Principal Investigator on the project. There is no forestry department at the university here. That being said, I could probably find a professor related to the arboretum or in the College of Tropical Agriculture that would be willing to sponsor such a project.


Sooooo....if you guys are really serious about undertaking such a project, I am offering a potential space to do it in. There may other obstacles that I am not yet aware of, but if there is a desire to pursue this idea I will find out. So whaddaya think guys?


could be a trip to Hawaii for you in there!:blob2:
 

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