Self belay prusik on SRT

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Bakes5

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What is your opinion on using a self belay prusik when climbing SRT (Texas style. 2 CMI Ultrascenders. One to saddle. One to foot straps (The foot strap one also hooks into the saddle for safety)) It is also diagramed in the sherill recreational tree climbing catalog as system 2.

I think the redundant belay it is a good idea as well, but just wanted to find out what others think about using it since it will technically be a 3rd point of attachement below the waist.

Thanks

Bakes
 
I'm not a tree guy, but I have 20 years experience at SRT. Big walls, caves, industrial access, etc.

The texas rig is a joke. Equally hopeless in all situations.
 
I like how a small diameter rope attaches to a large diameter rope.
 
Two ascenders ,you have a back up, if you want to be even safer a vt on a beaner on top of the upper ascender. Have to dis agree with sean, at least for tree work texas system is un clutered and un complicated. A 70 or 80 ft vertical climb is probably the most you will have to deal with, and usually less.
Try staying tied in on srt, and throwing your tail over other limbs to get good work positioning. You don't always have to climb to your tie in point and set up a ddrt system. Do some work on the way up using your ropes tail as a second tie in. Now that prussic will come in handy since you can unclip your ascenders (once your tied in with the tail) clip the prussic to you saddle and you can slack the srt side of the system so you can move around the tree.

Corey
 
lync said:
Two ascenders ,you have a back up, if you want to be even safer a vt on a beaner on top of the upper ascender. Have to dis agree with sean, at least for tree work texas system is un clutered and un complicated.

On the contrary I think that the texas rig is TOO CLUTERED and TOO COMPLICATED! Yes, there are much worse systems ("ropewalking" rigs) but there are simpler ones too.

As for backups, if you don't trust your ascenders, buy better ones. If you don't trust your rope, buy a better one.

SRT is all about simplicity. If you add complexity you probably aren't making yourself safer.
 
I have to stand with Sawn on this one. When I'm with my caving buddies, I use the systems they use, which is the Texas, the Mitchell and the Frog. I wouldn't consider using ANY of these in a tree, unless it was strictly recreational and for the purpose of ascent to a determined point with the intent of just coming back down.

Using two individual ascenders I always found more complicated than using one set of dual ascenders, which can be used for Ddrt, DbRT or SRT on 13 mm or 11 mm. These are secured (backed up) simply and instantly. The duals are unclipped once aloft and you swap to a friction system of your choice. Switchover only takes a matter of seconds while you're ihn a comfortable spot and fliplined in. Simplicity is of essence as the work aloft can bcome technical and the last thing you need is to be wrestling with the gear that's supposed to be helping you.

The Texas is a fabulous system for pure vertical ascents, especially with noob climbers as it is functionally sound. It's just grossly overcomplicated, timely to set up, slow compared to other options and not ideal to work off of. It's a pit caving system, not a tree system except, like I say, major vertical recreational ascents. If I were taking a beginner up a giant redwood, I would set them up in a Texas system.


As far as a self-belay prussik on SRT, I would consider that only in an emergency when no mechanical option is available, but not as a working system. To descend you almost have to use a footlock to add friction, as well as both hands, one on the rope and one on the prussik. You should be able to work off a belay system using one hand, or no hands, and keep everything else freed up. A prussik simply does not allow this.

SRT really does not lend itself well to friction hitch systems. To control friction on SRT with absolute control and precision, I've tried traditional hitches, advanced hitches and mechanical devices of all sorts. The friction hitch on SRT has been one problem that I have just not been able to solve. Any number of devices work marvelously well, even the simplest like an ATC or other tube-type devices. Occasionally, I enjoy a simple, fat aluminum ring, the same as those that come on a friction saver false crotch.

There's a lot of beauty in simplicity. The mechanical side of treecare is not that scary
 
As for backups, if you don't trust your ascenders, buy better ones. If you don't trust your rope, buy a better one.

--> I'm using CMI Ultrascenders and 11mm The Fly rope. Any reason I should not trust these? Anybody know of any issues of a serious incident attributed to this combination?


***BTW I climb for purely recreational purposes and use SRT for canopy access then switch over to DdRT

Thanks

Bakes
 
Tree Machine said:
The Texas is a fabulous system for pure vertical ascents, especially with noob climbers as it is functionally sound. It's just grossly overcomplicated, timely to set up, slow compared to other options and not ideal to work off of. It's a pit caving system, not a tree system except, like I say, major vertical recreational ascents. If I were taking a beginner up a giant redwood, I would set them up in a Texas system.

I'm curious to know what part of the Texas system (as shown on the Rescue Response link, also what New Tribe has, they don't call it anything, Sherrill calls it a New Tribe Frog) is grossly overcomplicated. It's so easy to put on the rope, self backing up and easy to climb, can be stowed away in a small bag when you switch to DdRT in the canopy. Maybe you're thinking of something else when you say "Texas system"?
-moss
 
I also agree. The Texas system is profoundly simple. I can hook in and be climbing in well under 30 seconds. I guess I could do secured footlock but I really don't want to.

LAter

Bakes
 
As far as page 91 goes: I do not use a chest harness and I use a foot loop for each foot

You still have not convinced me this is a bad system.

Clip top ascender onto rope
Clip bottom ascender onto rope
Clip yourself into ascenders
Put feet into loops
slide top, sit, slide bottom, stand, slide top, sit, slide bottom, stand, ........

Minimal equipment, can learn in about 30 seconds, is not that strenuous if you are even the slightest bit in shape (I guess it might be a little strenuous if you are packing a few too many cheese burgers under your XXXXL saddle) and still easy enough to do change overs at any point.

I'm not saying I know much about the other styles, I can just say that the texas system, for me, is a quick and easy way to get up the tree. What other SRT style would you recommend for canopy access?

Later

Bakes
 
I personally use this type system [no chest harness either] when I'm not spiking.
I find it pretty simple [albeit a bit goofy looking].
I am not a good footlocker so thats what i use.

.
 
Bakes5 said:
You still have not convinced me this is a bad system.
Nor will I. It's a proven system and it works really well. I'm always glad to see more Arborists using SRT. There's certain advantages to it.

Arborists have been climbing the DdRT/friction hitch system for well over a hundred years. Most still are. Nothing wrong with that, but it's really nice to see more and more guys diversifying and trying out new techniques.

Bakes5 said:
I'm using CMI Ultrascenders and 11mm The Fly rope. Any reason I should not trust these? Anybody know of any issues of a serious incident attributed to this combination?
Watch the little thumb lever that controls the position of the cam. It is made of plastic and the pivot pin holding it is sorta, well, I can't say I've ever had a problem with that pin, but it seems rather insubstantial (just my feeling). The plastic thumb lever, however, I have brought this to the attention of CMI severel times over the last decade as I have had this part break on TWO of their ascenders. This is the weak link. The bigger problem than that plastic part breaking is that the ascenders are still functional without it. Some guys will climb on them in this compromised state and it's really dangerous if that cam is not kept captive. If it is allowed to fully open, the rope could escape the ascender shell. Just inspect every time you go up. The CMI's are otherwise a very good, very popular device. The fly is a really good, fun rope, closer to a dynamic rock climbing rope than pretty much anything else designed for the arborist community. I keep a dragonfly amongst the collection (the green one).
 
Exsqueeze me? Are you a Mr. 'DdRT til death do I part'?

These systems are getting men up into trees safely. Is your manhood challenged by all this, Xtreme? This
urrrr grrrr hacks hacks
is not nice.
 
Actually, come to think of it, I set Elizabeth's pit rig up with two single ascenders. Instead of two footloops I have her set up with a single footloop that accomodates both feet. In between the upper and lower ascender she has a web strap/bungee that pulls the lower ascender up kind of automatically when you weight then upper ascender and lift your feet.

I've got a picture of it somewhere...... Gimme a minute......
 
I'm going to have to pull it out of her caving bag and take a picture of it, but it's the same concept as Bakes and Chux, just a little different tweak on it. Gimme some time to do that.



We're sort of off topic, eh?
 
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