Self Righteous Idiot got under my skin

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oldugly

ArboristSite Operative
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Messages
270
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39
Location
Central MN
I recently read a flyer from a so-called compettitor. Usually I can read the competitions advertisements with either amusement, respect, or sometimes even learn something from them. This one got under my skin.

I know the future of tree trimming is leaning towards the ISA, and even though I am not presently certified, and probably too old to and too hard-headed to become certified, I am still all for a group of professionals (who know more than me, and have pooled knowledge and science together) setting the standards in an industry I have loved for years.

I grew up in old-school. Yet although I am not completely independent of my spikes, I have set them aside more and more as time has went on, in search of a better way to trim a tree, without doing damage. In doing so, I have talked to and persuaded some of my competitors to adopt better trimming methods. The frequency of topping trees has diminished drastically in this area in the last few years. The practice of putting larger trims back until the fall or winter months has grown, We have almost completely eliminated pollarding, or stubbing trees, and are increasingly talking to customers to try to save rather than slaughter their trees.

Recently however all the work I have done with the other tree trimmers in this area just went out the window, by a self-proclaimed, (and he says, certified) Arborist. He published a flyer, criticizing all the tree trimmers in the area, calling us hacks and butchers, calling on us to match his credentials, etc. Which for all his claims and challenges he has yet to answer my calls, or return them.

By his claims, our poor trimming methods have lead to the spread of dutch elm disease, oak wilt, and a couple of other diseases. Other trimmers in the area have gotten so miffed by this, it has turned the word arborist into a cuss word usually accompanied bya few other adjectives and nouns. All the progress I thought I was making is now just lumped in with this clown, and my competitors really don't want to hear it anymore.

Amazingly, I was reading this flyer in a customer's house. He had called me to look at a lightning struck redoak, about 120 years old. While looking at the damage I noticed that the bark had been removed from about two thirds of the circumference of the tree, in about a two foot strip.

The tree, although split by the strike would have been salvageble, (although a large lead would definitley have to be removed), if it was not for all practical purposes girdled. The same person who had left the lovely piece of literature before mentioned, had climbed a ladder and "inspected" the damage, by removing the bark completely from the strike and surrounding area. He left no hope of resealing the wound, or even cabling the split, as his knife had gone to work inside the wound as well.

I'll take criticism from my peers, and even rebukes from my betters, but this babbling idiot got under my skin. This is a small area, with limited clientelle, I am sure I will run into him eventually. I don't think he wants that to happen soon.
 
This mutt sounds like some of the people here, don't feel bad about not being ISA certified. My good buddy, who is ISA cert. and much more importantly a certified utility arborist told me this "Jim, I got ISA certified just so that when some city moron or other ISA guy is talking Sh&T, I ask him why he thinks that, they always say, because I'm a certified arborist, I say in a quiete voice Yeah, so am I, so what?" Look, you know more than a lot of them. One thing I love about being a utility arborist in B.C. is that ISA means Jack sh&t, you cannot climb around power unless you have proven you can climb. Walk tall buddy, no big thing.
 
Under your skin

oldugly,

Sorry to here that some one has undermined the good work that you have done. I don't know if it is cool to put this in this forum but I will give it a try and if the moderators don't like it they may edit it, so here goes. If you want to determine if the person is a Certified Arborist, you can go on-line to the ISA website and do a search of their personal name. How you do that is http://www.isa-arbor.com then you go to "Find a Certified Arborist" and follow the prompts.

Please don't ever appologize for being a little long in the tooth, you have developed a work ethic that has kept you alive in an industry that has had too many casualties. You are never to old to learn, and that is one thing that the ISA is good at doing, making sure that you keep abreast of the changing industry. To remain Certified you must obtain at least 30 CEU's (Continuing Education Units) over a three year period, in order to recertify. These CEU's are not very complicated to acheive, and you are always wiser for obtaining them.
 
Hey Oldugly, hacks are everywhere. Around here, they seem to come out in the spring. They'll undercut the bigger companies and do piss poor work. By early to mid summer they'er burnt out and there customers have spread the word to others not to hire them! Unfortunately in this business, most people have little to no idea about what proper tree care is all about. So anyone with a chainsaw must know what they are doing right? NOT!!! Just remember this..."The quality of your work in the past will dictate the quantity of work you'll have in the future"! That said, start educating your customers about proper tree care so they can make an informed decision as to who they want to take care of there trees. Try www.treesaregood.com , or any other sit that explains to your customers proper tree care methods. Just my .02 :greenchainsaw: HC
 
Is it possible to scan the flyer and blot out any identifying information like phone numbers and company logos?

I've seen much of the damage done by some of the bad operators in central Minnesota. There are many companies that commute down to the Cities every day. I'm not saying that there aren't bad operators in the Cities or that all of the operators in central MN are bad by any means. REPEAT!!! I'm not saying that there aren't bad operators in the Cities or that all of the operators in central MN are bad by any means. But...I've talked with clients and customers that have shared their experiences with some of these interlopers. When the buzz on the street is loud enough to hear customers complain about tree companies from a specific area, it's time to pay attention.

It's too bad that the tree was damaged during the inspection.

If you have a complaint with the company, why not write to the owner? Let this thread run for a while and then you could copy/paste the responses and give the owner a link to the thread. Don't use anyone's name if you do quote the thread.
 
Tom Dunlap said:
If you have a complaint with the company, why not write to the owner? Let this thread run for a while and then you could copy/paste the responses and give the owner a link to the thread. Don't use anyone's name if you do quote the thread.

You've done my mistake and skimmed the post, read this quote from his original.

calling on us to match his credentials, etc. Which for all his claims and challenges he has yet to answer my calls, or return them.
 
Tom,
You and I have talked before, and I agree with you there are alot of bad trimmers in Central MN. Alot of them come from the Rice, Little Falls area, and infiltrate our little sector also. I am from the Annandale area, and here there are only three reputable tree services. I am not saying that any of the three have not made mistakes in the past, nor that every tree trimmed has been to perfection. The other two in the area, one has just sold out to a younger man, who is doing everything in his power to learn the proper ways to do everything, the other a wisened old-timer who I have bumped heads with and shared jobs with, but overall tries to do the best job he can. All three of us have been apalled by some of the sloppy work done by companies coming up from the cities, or down from LF/Rice.
Again, I would be the last one to say that I am perfect, nor would the other two claim to be....but I don't think that we deserve the rep we seem to have been given by this clown.
Don't misunderstand my comments either, there are some good trimmers in Little Falls, and Rice, but the Hacks seem to make it to our area, and the good ones don't show up too often.
By the way, I don't think any of us (the three I mentioned) take jobs in the cities very often. I know I don't and I don't think the other two do either. In the fifteen years I have been here, I can count the trips I made to the rat maze on one hand, (and still have fingers left over.)
 
Thanks for taking the time to write the long response. Your frustration is evident. You've done the right things...too bad you haven't gotten a response.

My no means are the best tree care companies located in the major population areas. I've crossed paths with some of the best arbos who have made a good reputation and living working where us city folks vacation.

There are times when painting with a broad brush is correct. Most of the time though a detailing brush is better. If this fella has a problem with specific people he needs to use a smaller brush. Generalities, biases and prejudices don't work.

Are you going to be at the Shade Tree Short Course at the end of March? I'm coming "home" to do a pruning presentation. I'd like to cross paths with you.
 
oldugly said:
Tom,
You and I have talked before, and I agree with you there are alot of bad trimmers in Central MN. Alot of them come from the Rice, Little Falls area, and infiltrate our little sector also. I am from the Annandale area, and here there are only three reputable tree services. I am not saying that any of the three have not made mistakes in the past, nor that every tree trimmed has been to perfection. The other two in the area, one has just sold out to a younger man, who is doing everything in his power to learn the proper ways to do everything, the other a wisened old-timer who I have bumped heads with and shared jobs with, but overall tries to do the best job he can. All three of us have been apalled by some of the sloppy work done by companies coming up from the cities, or down from LF/Rice.
Again, I would be the last one to say that I am perfect, nor would the other two claim to be....but I don't think that we deserve the rep we seem to have been given by this clown.
Don't misunderstand my comments either, there are some good trimmers in Little Falls, and Rice, but the Hacks seem to make it to our area, and the good ones don't show up too often.
By the way, I don't think any of us (the three I mentioned) take jobs in the cities very often. I know I don't and I don't think the other two do either. In the fifteen years I have been here, I can count the trips I made to the rat maze on one hand, (and still have fingers left over.)

Ever think that the reason only the hacks make out to you, or into the city is because the guys who do quality work don't have to travell out of their area to find work. Sounds like you fall into the latter category and I bet those few times you have travelled into the city it was for an existing good client. There is a guy here has a column in the paper and goes out of his way to make it sound like his company is the only one worth hiring in the area. That said he is a CA and he does good work, he's just completly unwilling to admit that anybody else is capable. Pisses me off, but then not to much because I get most of my clients through word of mouth and that goes much farther than his article
 
older

oldugly said:
I recently read a flyer from a so-called compettitor. Usually I can read the competitions advertisements with either amusement, respect, or sometimes even learn something from them. This one got under my skin.

I know the future of tree trimming is leaning towards the ISA, and even though I am not presently certified, and probably too old to and too hard-headed to become certified, I am still all for a group of professionals (who know more than me, and have pooled knowledge and science together) setting the standards in an industry I have loved for years.

I grew up in old-school. Yet although I am not completely independent of my spikes, I have set them aside more and more as time has went on, in search of a better way to trim a tree, without doing damage. In doing so, I have talked to and persuaded some of my competitors to adopt better trimming methods. The frequency of topping trees has diminished drastically in this area in the last few years. The practice of putting larger trims back until the fall or winter months has grown, We have almost completely eliminated pollarding, or stubbing trees, and are increasingly talking to customers to try to save rather than slaughter their trees.

Recently however all the work I have done with the other tree trimmers in this area just went out the window, by a self-proclaimed, (and he says, certified) Arborist. He published a flyer, criticizing all the tree trimmers in the area, calling us hacks and butchers, calling on us to match his credentials, etc. Which for all his claims and challenges he has yet to answer my calls, or return them.

By his claims, our poor trimming methods have lead to the spread of dutch elm disease, oak wilt, and a couple of other diseases. Other trimmers in the area have gotten so miffed by this, it has turned the word arborist into a cuss word usually accompanied bya few other adjectives and nouns. All the progress I thought I was making is now just lumped in with this clown, and my competitors really don't want to hear it anymore.

Amazingly, I was reading this flyer in a customer's house. He had called me to look at a lightning struck redoak, about 120 years old. While looking at the damage I noticed that the bark had been removed from about two thirds of the circumference of the tree, in about a two foot strip.

The tree, although split by the strike would have been salvageble, (although a large lead would definitley have to be removed), if it was not for all practical purposes girdled. The same person who had left the lovely piece of literature before mentioned, had climbed a ladder and "inspected" the damage, by removing the bark completely from the strike and surrounding area. He left no hope of resealing the wound, or even cabling the split, as his knife had gone to work inside the wound as well.

I'll take criticism from my peers, and even rebukes from my betters, but this babbling idiot got under my skin. This is a small area, with limited clientelle, I am sure I will run into him eventually. I don't think he wants that to happen soon.
hey your never too old to learn that stuff you been doing tree work for years. dont let the yahoo get you down j
 
Thanks everyone.

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond. I'm just going to let it go for awhile anyway, (its already been a few months) his caliber of trimming, and ethics will eventually give him the reputation he deserves. Around here the clientelle seem to appreciate the fact that the locals seem to work together instead of trying to cut eachother's throats. His presentation, and arrogance will soon be his own demise, and I don't really need to open my mouth much. I really just wanted to vent my frustration a little, and wanted to see what kind of response I would get from some of the CA's here, considering I am not one.
Tom, you are a wise man not to paint with a wide brush, and neither should I, (actuallly I make a conscious effort not to.)
jmack, I agree a good businessman does not have to go far for his trade, no matter what business he is in, his reputation speaks for itself, and his clientelle are his best advertisement.
The only time I travel more than a 30 mile radius, (this is a rural area, and 30 miles is a short trip anywhere) is for known clients or friends that have other property somewhere else, and usually I recommend they find someone closer to do their work.
Tom, from your posts I take it you are no longer in the cities. I have been recommending you highly to the cabin owners out here who live there, is there someone else you would recommend to these folks? If you do not want to post you can pm me on this.
I am currently working a subcontract 5 days a week, and trying to pull down some private jobs during the evening and weekend hours, so I don't know if I will have time to head down to the Shade Tree short course, but I feel that is my loss. I enjoyed our conversation last time, and I would like to cross paths with you again.
Thanks again everyone for the response. By the way, I started trying to limit my usage of spikes about 15 years before I ever heard of the ISA, or that it did any lasting damage to the trees. (I am not completely independent of them, but that's an entirely different, and well kicked dead horse in this site).
 
oldugly said:
his caliber of trimming, and ethics will eventually give him the reputation he deserves. Around here the clientelle seem to appreciate the fact that the locals seem to work together instead of trying to cut eachother's throats. His presentation, and arrogance will soon be his own demise,

Yep. Speaking as a homeowner, not a pro, a guy with a flyer like that wouldn't get so much as a phone call from me. I'd never know if he were any good or not - life is too short to deal with people like that.
 
reply

if you do good work people will find you , you sound like a good hard working person i dont' think you have anything to worry about. I don't advertise and i have a hard time keeping up.
 
"a lightning struck redoak, about 120 years old. While looking at the damage I noticed that the bark had been removed from about two thirds of the circumference of the tree, in about a two foot strip.

The tree, although split by the strike would have been salvageble, (although a large lead would definitley have to be removed), if it was not for all practical purposes girdled. The same person who had left the lovely piece of literature before mentioned, had climbed a ladder and "inspected" the damage, by removing the bark completely from the strike and surrounding area. He left no hope of resealing the wound, or even cabling the split, as his knife had gone to work inside the wound as well."

As a knife-wielding lightning damage inspector, I'm wondering how you know that 2' wound on the stem and the rest was caused by the knife and not the lightning itself. I always try to reattach bark that has been popped off, but on red oak that's tough to do unless you get there within a day. Otherwise if it's popped off and dry there's no harm in removing it. How can you say with certainty that the tree was salvageable?

It's all too easy for the tool to work the man instead of vice versa, and I've caught myself getting carried away on probing before. But pull back and put the emotion aside before you blast this dude for doing damage, until you are certain he did. btw did you check his credentials? I just caught a local here claiming to be certified when he let his lapse, the lazy fool. He heard from ISA right after that.

Re getting certified, you are never too old. I'm 55 and still learning.

Re the short course, I do not think you are forced to work 7 days a week and are unable to go. Every state should have the smorgasbord of tree info that MN offers, and there is no excuse for not going if you are interested in tree care.
 
"The lazy fool, let his lapse". How funny it is to say that Treeseer, how ironic. Just because he hadn't sent money to the ISA and completed some simple credits. You were saying how one could chuck a throwline way higher than a primary to spurless a tree by a powerline in another thread, this is totally against every power companies regs. Thread is B.C. Hydro, spurs to trim...In the homeowner thread about blowdowns, you advised the guy to get someone to climb trees that were half blowndown, other people called b.s. on you, I couldn't cause I am banned from that forum. That is only recently, look being ISA cert. is no assurance of anything. Those in glass houses......
 
[

Re getting certified, you are never too old. I'm 55 and still learning.

Re the short course, I do not think you are forced to work 7 days a week and are unable to go. Every state should have the smorgasbord of tree info that MN offers, and there is no excuse for not going if you are interested in tree care.[/QUOTE]


You may be right sir, and I definitely will try to make the time. As far as being "forced" to work 7 days, no. But its easier than arguing with Mrs.Ugly.
 
credits

clearance said:
"The lazy fool, let his lapse". How funny it is to say that Treeseer, how ironic. Just because he hadn't sent money to the ISA and completed some simple credits. You were saying how one could chuck a throwline way higher than a primary to spurless a tree by a powerline in another thread, this is totally against every power companies regs. Thread is B.C. Hydro, spurs to trim...In the homeowner thread about blowdowns, you advised the guy to get someone to climb trees that were half blowndown, other people called b.s. on you, I couldn't cause I am banned from that forum. That is only recently, look being ISA cert. is no assurance of anything. Those in glass houses......
to me treeseer is saying after all the work the credits are easy to maintain the guy is not telling you to spur bc hydro, go easy
 
clearance, thanks for letting me know about that broken tree thread; I posted there. Also, it's hard to talk details about hypothetical trees with no pictures, but it's been 20+ yrs since I did utility work so I would have as much place posting authoritatively on that forum as you do on the homeowners forum.

Renewing ISA cert is simple and cheap, less than a dime a day. I agree it's no assurance but it is a strong indicator that work will be done right and lots of tree owners know to look for that.

Oldugly, if my Mrs. argued with me if I didn't work 7 days a week I'd be wondering why she didn't want me home...:taped: Seriously tho, a lot to hear at that short course; I came up from nc a couple years ago and it was worth it.
 
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