Sharpening with Dremel vs. File & Chain Breaking

[TedChristiansen]

I started CS milling in May 2005 with Logosol TimberJig, Husqvarna 385XP, and filed my chains (3/8" pico, Stihl 63PMX) using Pferd filing jig. Had some trouble with the bar dipping as the cut progressed. Dressing the bar and flipping the bar regularly seemed to help. I filed in the shop using the Pferd jig and Logosol filing device (vise to hold chains while sharpening). In the field I just used the Pferd.

To speed up the sharpenings I switched to a Dremel with 5/32" stone a few months ago. I sharpened in the shop on the Logosol filing device and in the field on the bar (just like the filing approach). Sharpening is faster, but since making this switch I have broken some chains. The first chains to break were the ones that I bought in 2005 - they lasted along time. So I thought that they broke because they were old. However, in two sessions recently, almost brand new chains broke, in both cases after having been sharpened a couple of times (with the Dremel). In both of these cases, the bar started dipping. I suspect the bar dipping is what caused the chains to break. In the second case, I had a new chain, bar and sprocket.

It seems sharpening with the Pferd lessens, but doesnt eliminate the problem with the bar dipping compared to the Dremel. Why would this be? When using the Dremel I take off very little material, so as not to overheat the teeth. The surface of the grind seems to be better than filing, and the teeth seem sharper with the Dremel compared to filing.

Why is sharpening with the Pferd better than the Dremel?

Ted

 

[woodshop]

Don't know enough about chain to answer your question. I have heard from others though, that 3/8 picco chain is just not strong enough in general to take the torture that a csm dishes out. I've milled thousands of bd ft with my csm using standard 3/8 ripping chain, all kinds of hardwood and softwood, and never once broke a chain.

 

[TedChristiansen]

Woodshop,

The odd thing is that I never had a chain breakin the 1st year's worth of milling with just two chains (all filed). Since switching to the Dremel I have broken 4 chains (the two old ones and two almost new chains).



Ted

 

[Adkpk]

I have never broken a chain milling or other wise. What would sharpening have to do with them breaking. I hope your just grinding the teeth. I'd look elsewhere for your problem. I don't know much about other chain either. How about the tension? Your chain should be real free on the bar. I tighten mine so I know where they're at then I loosen so they are free on the bar. I spend the time to get it the first time so I never have to retighten the chain. What is the quality of the brand? I've only used carlton chain.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

What is PMX chain? Is that the small narrow stuff?
One difference in using a grinder is how the angles are maintained. If you're free handing, maybe your putting too much hook angle on the side plate. This would make the cutter more aggressive and put more strain on it.
If you were using a chain that is on the weak side for a saw that big, then you put a more aggressive angle on it, it might cause problems to start showing up.
Just guessing here.

 

[aggiewoodbutchr]

I've sharpened with a Dremmel for a long time but have never broken a chain while milling. I can't see how this alone could be the cause.

I believe what Mike said is the most likely culprit. I've read somewhere to use the next size larger file to reduce the chances of having too much hook. Maybe it was here but i can't remember.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

A bigger file, or in this case, a bigger grinder wheel would help, but just holding the the grinder higher on the cutter will reduce the hook angle.

 

[TedChristiansen]

Mike (and all),

Thanks for the helpful information - that makes sense. I'll look at using a larger stone.

What if the teeth are not all the same length? Would that make the chain pull to one side, causing the bar to dip/move?

Regards,

Ted

 

[clearance]

The teeth and rakers should be the same sizes for the best production. The hook matter is perhaps a red herring, I have been hand filing saws from 020s to 394s for the last twenty years, sometimes no hook, sometimes huge hooks, both from the side and looking down from the top. I have had a few chains break on me, sometimes because of the straps being filed, sometimes cause the chain had been caught and bent, sometimes for no apparent reason. I can't say one way or the other that hooks make chains break. When I was juvenile spacing I ran a 266XP with an 18" bar and 73 lg chain (chisel, non-skip), I had hooks in the teeth, pounded that saw all day, like 8-10 tanks. Basically juvenile spacing is just revving up the saw a second before you hit the tree with the back of the bar and slicing right through it. Bars only lasted a month at best, even with constant care, chains broke on me maybe three times in two years. So many chains I filed right to nothing and hucked 'em in the bush, so, I have to call BS on the hook thing.

 

[poleframer]

On inspection, which link in the chain broke? what evidence of the failure do you see? Should tell you right there. I run 404/ .063 ga on my 090, no prob. ,even with a lot of filing changes. On my ms200t I run micro picco chain, and have to be careful, cause their aint much room before I start to file close to a rivet if I dive with the file.

 

[carvinmark]

I am so far from being an expert on filing a chain, but here is what has happened with my chains on my mill:
I used to hand sharpen-ok for the first 1 or 2 times and then the bar would dip or rise during the cut-Not good!
Then I would send my chains to different shops to be ground. Never got one back that cut even close to a new one and needed to be filed after first cut.I had deep conversations with shop owners and employees on this problem but it just didn't help in the end.
Next I used my dremel, by hand, with no guide and it worked real good for the first few times then I was back to the same situation I had with filing by hand-Not good.
After realizing that I needed to learn to file or come up with something so I got a bench mounted grinder,511a,and it has made milling fun again.

I'm not trying to say one way is better than the other! I admit it, I can't hand file worth a damn unless I use a guide,and I struggle with them too.
I absolutely love my grinder and for me, I will always grind my chains cause it works for me,REAL GOOD. Wish I would have got it sooner.


Mark :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

If anybody wants to take a close up picture of a chain that's giving them trouble, we can have a look and if it'sa good picture, let you know whats wrong.
Ted, do you still have one of those broken chains?
Also, when a chain breaks, it's a simple thing to repair.

 

[manual]

Breaking a Chain ?
First thing that went through my mind was rakers. Or maybe lack of lube.

Mark I understand where you are coming from. The difference between
using a machine and by hand is consistancy.

Would like to see the chains that are breaking too.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I would also like some clarification on what Ted means when he says the chain dips? Is this intermittent crooked cutting?

 

[TedChristiansen]

Here is a picture of the chain. The drive link broke.

Since it is pico chain, will a chainsaw shop be able to repair it (will they have the right drive link on hand)?

Ted

 

[TedChristiansen]

Bar Dipping

Mike,

Bar dipping is how I describe it because the bar is horizontal. It is the same result as crooked cutting I suppose.

The unsupported end of the bar bends down as the cut lengthwise along the log progresses.

Ted

 

[Rodney Sinclair]

Here is a picture of the chain. The drive link broke.

Since it is pico chain, will a chainsaw shop be able to repair it (will they have the right drive link on hand)?

Ted

They should be able to fix it Ted. It's just like the 63 PM pico chain. I had the Stihl dealer fix a 24" for me a while back. Cost $4 if he did it. If you got a breaker & spinner, you can fix it for a buck.
I run a 385XP on the M7 and have cut with the 63 PM chain left at the 30* angle. Cut fine, just not as smooth. I also got caught in a bind once while building a deck and needed a 10 foot 2x10 to finish and my 385 went down. Finished up the last 2 cuts with a Stilh 310MS with a 20" bar and reg 30* chain. Cut just fine.
I don't understand why your cuts are pulling down as you cut through the log. Has it done this from the first cut, or just started to do it?
Rodney

 

[manual]

Using a chain saw to mill logs to lumber is new to me.
If it were a bandsaw and you get dipping it eather have a bad set or band is streached.
just guessing I would say one side is sharper then other or bow in the bar.
What happens if you were to flip bar over.

 

[TedChristiansen]

I was thinking more about this bar dipping problem. What about the chain being tighter than it needs to be? If you add the effects of a the chain being unequally sharpened and the chain being tighter than need be, it seems the bar could dip like this. Narrow ripping chain is .050 gauge, with a thinner bar.

Next time I mill I am going to set the chain a little looser than I do normally and see how it does.

Ted

 

[woodshop]

I was thinking more about this bar dipping problem. What about the chain being tighter than it needs to be? If you add the effects of a the chain being unequally sharpened and the chain being tighter than need be, it seems the bar could dip like this. Narrow ripping chain is .050 gauge, with a thinner bar.

Next time I mill I am going to set the chain a little looser than I do normally and see how it does.

Ted

In my experience, a looser chain will wander MORE than a tighter one in my csm. A bar that wanders in a cut is often due to chain not sharpened correctly, like if you had a tendency to sharpen all the left teeth a little deeper than the right ones, it will pull to the one side.