Shaver Improvement Forum.... one year later

[ngzcaz]

So what have we learned ??

1. The contraption for the change of the water coil sucks. I just took mine off to see what was in and it was a nightmare.. dust, insulation sticking to the slide, nothing to keep that junk from falling in your water supply and gumming up the works when you remove the slide. And don't forget to take a look at your chimney from the inside when you have the slide off.. Rusty for sure which will fall in the water eventually. I had my water treated from Water Solutions that was recommended by the manufacturer. Good thing the chimney's thick.
Bottom line..if you can seal the slide, do it and forget it. Add chemicals from the overflow pipe.

2. Insulation rules................. anywhere you can. Don't forget to go all the way up the chimney to the roof to help prevent the chimney from clogging up from creosote as well as keeping the heat in the firebox. Some have been adamant about insulating the bottom of the boiler as well. Makes sense..

3. Change the thermostat to anything else. Which I regret to say haven't done to date.

4. My door loosened up to the point where I added a shim to close it tightly. There doesn't seem to be a factory adjustment. I also had to redo the silicone door gasket. If you have to redo the gasket, cut some wax paper a little bigger than the width of the silicone and apply it after you put the silicone in the crevice on the door. Then shut the door to get a perfect seal. The wax paper allows you to open the door after the silicone solidifies.

5. At least for me, the ashes kind of piled up on the sides of the unit. This actually insulated the unit and only allowed heat to go to the very top of the OWB instead of heat transference to the sides where it might help a bit more. Seems this should be rounded more so the ashes slide toward the grates. If I wanted to shovel ashes I would have bought a CB ( no offense )

It did work all winter.. no oil, just a little more electric for the pump. Seems like Big Oil wants us to shut them down and burn oil again. At a little over $ 2.00 a gallon its tempting.. but I have a sizable investment to get back. A test burn or two in the near future and hopefully an uneventful heating season for 2010.

How about sharing your thoughts on last season ??

 

[Windwalker7]

Been thinking of putting some fire brick in the fire box. Haven't done it and was wondering what effect it would have. Thought I read somewherer it would trap moisture and cause rust. Not sure if this is true.

Also thinking of putting some insulation on the door like others have done.

Haven't done either, just thinking about it.


My door is also a little loose. I wish there were some type of adjustment for it.

 

[ngzcaz]

Been thinking of putting some fire brick in the fire box. Haven't done it and was wondering what effect it would have. Thought I read somewherer it would trap moisture and cause rust. Not sure if this is true.

Also thinking of putting some insulation on the door like others have done.

Haven't done either, just thinking about it.


My door is also a little loose. I wish there were some type of adjustment for it.

1. Firebrick would seem to insulate the bottom instead of allowing the heat to transfer to the water, just the opposite of what we want.

2. Door shim is the only thing I came up with. A shim put on the inside of the handle that secures the door was 1/2 hr job if you have the materials. I secured mine with two countersunk screws in case I have to redo it in the future. No one can see the shim from the front. Nice and tight.

3. Door insulation is just cutting some 3 1/2 inch fiberglass to approx size then tear the paperback off. Then tear that to about 2 inches thick so you can ease it in the door w/o compressing it too much. Probably find enough upstairs or in the garage for a no cost addition.

I can see the underside of the OWB in the back as I'm sure others can as well. I'd like to shoot some foam or blow some insulation all the way to the front. Shouldn't even have to remove the sides unless you want to do the sides also. I need to check around for some ideas on the net.

Re : thermostat.. the hack factory job is almost too hard to believe. No wonder its off by 25 or 30 degrees. Mine was touching on one side and not touching on the other. Shoved a wood shim so both sides contacted somewhat evenly for the season. Time for a better fix. You could have pulled a car with the bolt they have to secure the thermostat.

:greenchainsaw:

 

[ngzcaz]

*** BTW, I just got off the phone from Tennessee w/the stock thermostat company. They stated their units wont pass inspection unless they are within 8 degrees. I truly think its the bad job of making the unit contact the OWB thats causing the wild fluctuations in temperature. I'm going to give it another shot and make it contact the back evenly and see what happens. After a couple of test burns I should know. Last year I just shoved some wood shims, this year I'll give it a bit more thought. There just cant be that much deviation from the true temperature.

:monkey:

 

[Windwalker7]

I installed a Ranco last year.

Drilled a dry well in the top for the probe. (basically did what others did on here and followed their instructions) Made the dry well out of a 14" piece of 1/4"copper tubing capped on one end.

Set the differential at 5 degrees. I like that it kicks the fan on after dropping 5* instead of after about 20* like the stock set up. Takes too long for the water temp to recover in my opinion.

I'd strongly advise installing the Ranco thermostat.

I didn't do the blower mod. Just kept blower in stock form.

I also thought of sliding some foam board under the water jacket from the back. Even thought about gluing some aluminum foil (shiny side up) to the top of it to reflect back the heat.

 

[ngzcaz]

This is the last try for the thermostat. This time I moved the thermostat up a few inches, forgot about the monster bolt and made my own setup and now have a nice tight fit to the back of the stove. The combination of the thermostat being a bit low ( hotter water will be at the top ) and not making full contact may ( I hope ) have screwed up the readings. At least this time if it still has wild fluctuations I'll know I need to change it. There's no question that an inside well will monitor the water much better than the present set up. Heat transference from the steel will last longer than the actual water temp so the water will be a different temp than the steel for an undetermined length of time. That may account for part of the problem.
I had no problem heating my small home last year even in the coldest temps even with taking HOT baths ( think wife/red behind ) and running the dishwasher and the same time. It would have been interesting if I ran the lines out to the garage ( 100 ft one way ) No question my wood consumption would have been way up.
I have to blow/put insulation under the stove as mentioned earlier but then I'm done for the season. Make a couple of test burns and wait for the season to start. I had thought of adding to the sides but the sides weren't warm to the touch last year. I did add a few wraps to the chimney with some left over solarguard from the inside. It probably would pay to remove the stock insulation from the top and then add a couple of layers of solarguard to reflect the heat back in the stove. I hate the fiberglass itch so..............

:greenchainsaw:

 

[Windwalker7]

I didn't install the Ranco until very late in the heating season. Before the Ranco, the blower ran constantly trying to get the water back up to temp.

What you said about the steel retaining the temperature longer than the water is true. That, along with the stock thermostat's 8* differential is why the water temp drops so much before the blower kicks on. By then the water temp is so low, it takes forever to catch back up.

With the Ranco, the blower only runs about half as much. It is much easier to recover 5* than it is to recover 20*.


Over all, I am satisfied with the Shaver. I actually like tinkering with it and making some of the improvements. My problem is with their customer relations and out right lying to customers about the delivery dates last year.

 

[ngzcaz]

[Quote
What you said about the steel retaining the temperature longer than the water is true. That, along with the stock thermostat's 8* differential is why the water temp drops so much before the blower kicks on. By then the water temp is so low, it takes forever to catch back up.
With the Ranco, the blower only runs about half as much. It is much easier to recover 5* than it is to recover 20*.



Not only does it retain the heat but it also takes longer to register the temperature to shut off the stat. I noticed mine was getting hotter than 180 before it shut off. It will be interesting if the couple of inches I moved the stat will make a difference. It certainly cant be worse... The stat was set at 140 and inside my home it was reading 180 on the oil burners temp gauge. I dont have a heat exchanger so I trust the oil burners temp gauge a lot more than I do the one on the back of the stove.
Like you, I think overall its a decent stove. As we said in the first forum, a couple of very minor changes would make this a " best buy " for the money. That and a little more pride in their craftsmanship would help the " Buy American " really mean something. I haven't welded in 20 years but when I was I would have been ashamed to admit that some of that was my handiwork. But it doesnt leak, it does work, and offered the quickest payback of any stove I looked at.

 

[ngzcaz]

Hey Windwalker, what part of Pa. do you hail from ? I'm in NE Pa at the foot of the Poconos. Gets cold as heck w/ normally a lot of snow possible at any given time. Its getting time when I either light a fire or turn on the oil heat.

Re : loose door.. I got away with wood shims ( aka broken off branch ) last winter but not this year. Unfortunately your door wont tighten up as the winter progresses. The steel shim I put on in is the stationary handle on the stove itself that doesn't move, not the movable handle of the door. I wasn't very clear on that.

*** while we are on the door, did you make or change the end of the handle where you pull the door open and close it. That piece of steel should have some thing covering the last 6 or 8 inches. If I had an old coal type shovel that wasn't being used, I'd cut the handle off and rig it to fit. That way you could fit your whole hand inside the handle to pull it.

:biggrinbounce2:

 

[Windwalker7]

I'm from the SW part of the state(Westmoreland Co)

I resealed my door with high temp silicone I filled the crease and covered with Parchment paper(sorta like wax paper used for baking stuff) and closed the door. Seems to be a little tighter.

I'll eventually probably have to shim it anyway.

Haven't done anything with the handle.

I slid some reflective foam board under it yesterday to maybe help insulte the bottom, also stuffed some fiberglass insulation in the door itself.

It's been pretty cool here the last couple days, actually even thinking about starting her up. I'll probably hold off a few more weeks though.

Had a triaxle load of logs delivered about a week ago (next year's wood) and have been working on getting it cut and stacked.

This will be my second year with the Shaver. I'm actually a little anxious to get it fired up. I have forced air heat in most of the house and some self installed radiant floor heat in the great room.

Last year the house was the warmest its been in many years thanks to the Shaver. No more turning the thermostat down to save on heating oil. We usually have it about 73*, although I've come home to it about 78*-79* when the daughter is home by herself. She'll even go out and throw some logs in it herself.

 

[John D]

Just took off the siding from the front and one side of my shaver to add some insulation. The factory job isnt horrible over the flats on the sides,but the corners,and crevices are nt insulated at all.Its very clear these boilers were assembled with one thing in mind,get it done fast,dont worry if its done right. Now that the sidings off,Im disturbed at how wet the insulation is behind and above the front door opening.This thing isnt a yr old,and all the framework is rusted up realy good,because Shaver doesnt paint anything,and its always wet between the poor fit,and sweating from lack of insulation.Im not sure what to do behind the door,not sure if its a water leak from the boiler,or its getting in the roof or siding somewhere.The scarey part is we ordered 7 of these things,and mine was one of the best as far as fit and finish went!My door shuts perfectly,my sidings attached.and my back door shuts perfect.5 of our units had major issues,the doors wouldnt even shut right front or back.Ill post pictures later.....

 

[fletcher0780]

Just took off the siding from the front and one side of my shaver to add some insulation. The factory job isnt horrible over the flats on the sides,but the corners,and crevices are nt insulated at all.Its very clear these boilers were assembled with one thing in mind,get it done fast,dont worry if its done right. Now that the sidings off,Im disturbed at how wet the insulation is behind and above the front door opening.This thing isnt a yr old,and all the framework is rusted up realy good,because Shaver doesnt paint anything,and its always wet between the poor fit,and sweating from lack of insulation.Im not sure what to do behind the door,not sure if its a water leak from the boiler,or its getting in the roof or siding somewhere.The scarey part is we ordered 7 of these things,and mine was one of the best as far as fit and finish went!My door shuts perfectly,my sidings attached.and my back door shuts perfect.5 of our units had major issues,the doors wouldnt even shut right front or back.Ill post pictures later.....

pictures?

 

[John D]

Ok I didnt strip it down yet,as im still undecided as to what method im going to take with it.So just the siding is off,and my battery died,so i only have a few pics for now. Ill say im very disgusted at what the frame looks like.The sweating inside the roof all winter clearly took its toll in the framework,so im going to be prepping and rustoleum painting it at some time in the near future.Overall the insulation isnt great,but its better than i thought it was going to be after looking at everything else.Like the rest of the boiler the details were skipped.The solarguard wrapped around the unit is not too bad,but at ever corner,and crevice,there is no insulation,just bare exposed metal.Especially in the front of the unit,where the top insulation lays,and meets the front insulation,there is a sizable gap of over a few inches where there is zero insualtion.ill get more pics as the week goes on.Me and a cousin are trying to get the icynene guy to give us a decent price to spray them.Right now they want 750 each to spray foam the 340,dont know how much cheaper my smaller 250 would be.I dont want to spend 750 on it thats for sure.Im almost thinking a roll of r19 unfaced,stuff it in all the missed spot and corners,and call it good,just the bottom corners there was still a lot exposed when i insulated the bottom,I still missed quite a bit you couldnt see it until the siding was off.So either way ill get a decent improvement.
Id also like to move the ranco to the front as well for easy viewing and temp changes without having to go out back.

When you look at these pictures remember this unit isnt even a yr old yet!And the metal is inside where its supposed to be protected from the weather.Sweating from the hot chimney and poor insulation caused water to form inside the roof,and it would even run down and form icicles on cold nights...

 

[John D]

First pic is right behind front panel at top where front meets top,you can clearly see the exposed tank there where there was zero isulation.No wonder it was so hot inside the roof.
Sec pic is right above the door,this insulation is all wet,as is all of ot around the door.Clearly the sealer Shaver uses on the door is inadequete for the heat and elements.Again it didnt even last a year.You could see where rain was leaking past the sealer,and running behind the siding,and being wicked up by the fiberglass insulation.
Third pic is behind the fill valve,no water in that area,no wet insulation.

Overall im dissappointed,but not at all suprised by what i see.If i get time ill get more pics.

 

[John D]

Difficult to see from this pic,but this shot is the left rear upper corner.The white is the backside of the siding that is in the rear compartment.The entire corner is exposed metal,with the uninsulated area extending to the front about 2 ft,just below the top corner.The pink insulation on the upper right is what i added over the top and inside the entire rear compartment,it clearly helped some,as the entire rear ares was light on insulation.

 

[Fishhead]

My 250's top plate was barley even welded on and it steamed like a locomotive. Said it was the roof seal "yeah right". Look at the welds on the top plate to make sure they look good and if you think there questionable wire brush it and use "some more" of the famous high temp silicone to ensure its not pissing steam out. My frame looked the same way and my insulation was soaked.

 

[ngzcaz]

Well.. I didn't look at the front of the stove by removing the panels, but the rear of the stove is Ok. I elevated mine a bit with the concrete pad so water would flow away from the unit. Clearly in your situation water is either getting in from the outside, something is leaking or the insulation is too tight making everything condense in those areas. Just as an attic has to be ventilated so do these stoves. Maybe in our effort to insulate these things we aren't following some of the edicts regarding ventilation. As I said in an earlier post perhaps removing the top insulation and putting a couple layers of solarguard with its reflective qualities first before adding the rest of the insulation would help in all areas. If it persists maybe a small fore and aft vent at the two eves would do the trick. There's no question with an R-50 rating ( or higher ) snow should remain on these roofs.
John , in your case I think I remember yours being fired quite steadily in order to keep up to heat demands. Is it possible that the top was too tight causing condensation? This is for everyone with any stove.. don't plug up openings where you see them if they are above the insulation. I obviously don't mean holes in the roof or where water can enter. They serve to keep condensation from occurring. Another thought might be that the insulation wasn't spread evenly on the top causing an area that allowed heat to escape. Maybe an area that cant be seen for example from the back. I for example can't see what the front of my stove at the top looks like. Now that heat would mix with the colder air and consequently cause condensation. One area that foam has it all over fiberglass is when it gets wet. Fiberglass becomes almost useless. And.... 750 to insulate the stove sounds like a lot. That would buy an awful lot of cans of Great stuff..

:greenchainsaw:

 

[Stihl310]

I guess I'm a little confused... did you guys realize all these problems after you bought it, or did you think they were good units from the get go?? Just curious... seems like a lot of hassle, my homemade unit seems like it would be a better unit just from reading all these posts...

 

[pipe76]

Shaver

I'm a research a product to death before I buy type of guy, and after reading everything about shaver, and seeing first hand the lie's they claim on the website, I'm not sure why anyone would trust these guys, It's cheaper yes, but all the problems surely aren't worth it.

 

[fletcher0780]

There was a bit of deception (either intentional or unintentional). For one, they had an image on their website that ilustrated how well insulated the unit was (showed very thick insulation all around the water jacket including on the bottom) I saved the original image they used, look on their site now, it has changed:

I'm not one of the guys who got screwed over by waiting so long, and I think my boiler is fairly solid (welds and all) because they weren't super busy when I ordered it. I like to overall style of the boiler and I opted for a much larger door than the norm (mine is 24x24 instead of 18x18). I've also made several changes to my boiler inluding a better aquastat, and an electric damper on the blower. I'm in the middle of building a shed over my boiler and wood storage, so I don't care how water tight the seams are, but I do wish I had more and better insulation (I'll remedy this after the shed is built) I also wish the boiler sat higher, which I've taken care of by excavating down about 6" infront of the boiler). We'll see what happens this year, but if I had it to do all over again, I wood have bought another brand that had an ashpan, blower, larger door, better insulation, and a thick mild steal firebox.