Splitter bubbling over

[mtnwkr]

I'm repairing an old Montgomery Wards splitter for a friends parents. It's been run regularly for 30+ years and was getting tired.
It didn't have any power to split anything and would bubble over while trying.
I changed the Pump and put a newer engine on it, changed the fluids and hoped for the best. It now has much more splitting power but if you hold it forward against, say a sideways log, it immediately starts to shoot all it's fluid out the filler cap.
Any ideas on what to troubleshoot next? Is it likely the valve or the ram? Any way to test one or the other without buying a pressure gauge?
Thanks for any help!

 

[Deleted member 135597]

You should be able to cap the line going into the cylinder to eliminate it bypassing through the cylinder.

 

[Deleted member 135597]

Obviously it has to be a steel cap that can withstand the pressure

 

[NSMaple1]

Got pics?

Mine will do that sometimes - if I have too much fluid in it, and it's sitting the wrong way. Doesn't shoot out exactly, kind of oozes.

Does it look like pure oil coming out, or is it discolored and fuzzy looking like maybe there might be air mixed into it?

 

[NSMaple1]

You should be able to cap the line going into the cylinder to eliminate it bypassing through the cylinder.

Ummm say what?

 

[muddstopper]

Oil coming out of the cap is usually a sign the tank is over full. What does confuse me is that it only overflows on cyl extention. It should take more oil to extend the cyl than retract, so the tank oil level should be at its lowest point on full extension. While I dont recommend putting a stick of wood sideways in the splitter, the act of doing so should cause oil to dump over the relief. It is possible that after the pump replacement and oil change, there could be air in the system that is mixing with the oil under pressure which would expand the oil, but you should be seeing foaming of the oil if this is so. It is also possible the cyl bore is worn and could be bypassing internally, this could also cause some foaming and certainly reduce power, but I would expect oil overflow on retraction as well as extension.

 

[mtnwkr]

There is air bubbles being mixed into the oil, causing the oil volume to increase rapidly, but only under load. I can fill it and run the ram back and forth no problems until it's up against a load, then something is leaking by, causing cavitation and bubbles to be mixed into the oil. Oil will shoot 4' out the hole in the breather cap and then I cannot retract the ram without a huge mess because the volume of oil has increased.
The oil is at the right level when I begin, it's not sucking air at the tank. It's not overfull.
Thanks for any insight on how to determine if the cylinder or the valve is the problem!

 

[homemade]

You should be able to cap the line going into the cylinder to eliminate it bypassing through the cylinder.

I think what woody is getting at, is internal seal on the piston is bypassing. This causes high pressure fluid to enter the low pressure side of the cylinder and down the return side of the valve and into the tank, all at 2000psi or so. When is actually should be at 100 psi or so for return pressure. Put a cap or plug on the side that "empties" when splitting, and try splitting a piece. The ram shouldn't extent more then a 1/4 inch and it should keep the tank from overflowing. If the tank still bubbles over, then the seals in the valve are leaking via the same previously described method.

On a side note, don't use a $0.99 black iron plug or cap. There not designed for the pressures of hydraulic splitters. Go to a farm implement dealer. They have fittings and hoses designed for the pressures.


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[kevin j]

even if it's by passing, anywhere in the system, it should not cause the air expansion. Have to find out where the air is coming in either a suction line or a shaft seal on the pump.

is there a suction strainer or suction filter on the system? It can cause a high vacuum and draw air in. Air can be drawn in a pinhole leak under vacuum, while it's running, but the leak may not leak oil when the system is shut off

 

[muddstopper]

There is air bubbles being mixed into the oil, causing the oil volume to increase rapidly, but only under load. I can fill it and run the ram back and forth no problems until it's up against a load, then something is leaking by, causing cavitation and bubbles to be mixed into the oil. Oil will shoot 4' out the hole in the breather cap and then I cannot retract the ram without a huge mess because the volume of oil has increased.
The oil is at the right level when I begin, it's not sucking air at the tank. It's not overfull.
Thanks for any insight on how to determine if the cylinder or the valve is the problem!

If air is geting in the oil, I would start by checking the suction line from tank to pump. Did you get all the clamps tight? Sucking air will certainly cause foaming and expansion. Is there a suction filter that could possibly be clogged. While oil is nearly incompressionable, it can be expanded greatly. A clogged suction filter, or a collaspeing suctionhose can cause oil shear in the pump. With oil shear, the molecules of the oil are ripped apart and the air that is normally entrapped in the oil will expand and cause cavitation and extreme wear on the pump internals. The oil will expand, heat up and over flow.

 

[NSMaple1]

If air is geting in the oil, I would start by checking the suction line from tank to pump. Did you get all the clamps tight? Sucking air will certainly cause foaming and expansion. Is there a suction filter that could possibly be clogged. While oil is nearly incompressionable, it can be expanded greatly. A clogged suction filter, or a collaspeing suctionhose can cause oil shear in the pump. With oil shear, the molecules of the oil are ripped apart and the air that is normally entrapped in the oil will expand and cause cavitation and extreme wear on the pump internals. The oil will expand, heat up and over flow.

Wouldn't that apply under no load as well? Seems to be an under-load condition from the description.

 

[speeco]

Just putting in my two cents worth. If u supect piston to be bypassing . here is a test that has always worked for me. Run cylinder out fully extended . then remove ram end hose connection start up motor and run lever to the extend position. If piston is leaking oil will come out of port on cylinder. Ps don't run lever to retract position , oil mess will happen.

 

[muddstopper]

Wouldn't that apply under no load as well? Seems to be an under-load condition from the description.

I would suspect if the pump was sucking air, or had a collasped suction hose, it would occur load or no load. I also suspect that under pressure build up, oil dumping over the relief, it would be made worse because of increased velocity of the high pressure flowing thru the small relief orfice. Like whipping up egg whites, the faster you whip, the fluffier the whites become. Anyways, I am just speculating and in no way giving a definitive answer. I would probably try speeco's advice and fully extend the cyl and disconnect the rod end hose and activate the CV and see if any oil squirted out. Easy to do and a sure fire way to see if cyl is bypassing. Dont even have to take the hose all the way off, just loose enough to allow oil to squirt

 

[mtnwkr]

Ok, I did what y'all said, ran the ram forward and disconnected the hose. Started her up again and when trying to extend the ram I had a pretty good trickle coming out the hose which increased to a stream and got foamy as I held the lever.
I pulled the cylinder off, trying to get the ram out of this thing now.
Anyone ever put new seals in one of these? I've called every hydraulic and tractor store within an hours drive and $200 is the cheapest I've been quoted for repair.

 

[muddstopper]

rebuilding a cyl isnt that bad. Probably get a complete kit for $50 bucks. If the cyl has a welded rod end, you will have to remove the piston from the rod to change the cap seal. Post a pic of the the endcap at the rod end. The rodcap can be held in place by several different methods but once you know how it is held in place, it usually isnt that hard to take apart.

 

[mtnwkr]

I took it all apart this morning, the seals didn't look too bad but there was a lot of debris in the cylinder. I cleaned and flushed everything and put it all back together and it's working great and not passing fluid by the seals anymore. I think some crap was stuck between the seal and the cylinder causing the leak. Maybe it'll work for a week, maybe ten years.
I found a great video on Youtube of the same cylinder I was working on, made it much easier knowing how to get things apart!