Months ago we planted approx 20 white spruce and a few norway spruce in our Ohio yard. The weather here has been dry so I am wondering how often and how much water I should be using to water these trees. A couple weeks ago I noticed a couple of these white spruce have what appears to be dried up lower branches without needles and the upper limbs have needles that fall off to the touch. I recently have been watering every two or three days applying maybe 45-60 seconds worth of water with a hose to each tree. Please give me some advise.
Spruce watering
- Thread starter chase
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Hey Chase,
Appropriate amount of water during establishment is critical for the survival of your young trees. If your hose is putting out approximately 5 gals/min then your timing should be pretty good. I'm trying to remember how big these transplants were. But if they are in that 1" caliper range this should be good enough at 3 times a week. If they are bigger, allow more water (up to around 10 gals) 3 times/week.
Factors that are going to affect this is how fast/slow your soil drains. If fast, then you are going to want to slow down the hose and leave it on longer. If your soil drains slow, you may want to increase the length between watering.
You want to be sure you get the entire root ball wet but you also need to occasionally make sure the ground away from the root ball is wet as well. This will encourage the roots to stretch out.
Remember to actually test the soil to get a sense of what the trees need rather than follow too a rigid schedule.
Sylvia
Appropriate amount of water during establishment is critical for the survival of your young trees. If your hose is putting out approximately 5 gals/min then your timing should be pretty good. I'm trying to remember how big these transplants were. But if they are in that 1" caliper range this should be good enough at 3 times a week. If they are bigger, allow more water (up to around 10 gals) 3 times/week.
Factors that are going to affect this is how fast/slow your soil drains. If fast, then you are going to want to slow down the hose and leave it on longer. If your soil drains slow, you may want to increase the length between watering.
You want to be sure you get the entire root ball wet but you also need to occasionally make sure the ground away from the root ball is wet as well. This will encourage the roots to stretch out.
Remember to actually test the soil to get a sense of what the trees need rather than follow too a rigid schedule.
Sylvia
The ground is mostly clay. Cant understand why some of these trees appear to be drying up from the bottom up. I have been watering near mid day but try to only wet the ground and not the tree itself. The lower branches have obviously gotten wet, is this a problem?
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
If you are in mid to s. Ohio as I am, we have had perfect growing conditions.....up until NOW (roughly 10 days ago). Just like if you drank water to excess all week it doesn't matter in the least if you choose to not to drink any today on a very hot day.
My suggestion would be to spring for the Gator bags and you will have to use the low profile ones and maybe trim a few small low branches off to fit them underneath the trees. They will cost a little over $10. ea. and fill them every 3 or 4 days without rain. This will give a slow penetrating watering to make up for the clay soil.
All the trees are not going to react the same as, like people, even of the same species there are a lot of variables here. Don't over water either as the clay can act like a basin and consequently suffocate roots.
My suggestion would be to spring for the Gator bags and you will have to use the low profile ones and maybe trim a few small low branches off to fit them underneath the trees. They will cost a little over $10. ea. and fill them every 3 or 4 days without rain. This will give a slow penetrating watering to make up for the clay soil.
All the trees are not going to react the same as, like people, even of the same species there are a lot of variables here. Don't over water either as the clay can act like a basin and consequently suffocate roots.
ChrisWNY
ArboristSite Operative
Spruces typically don't need much watering even during dry conditions, if you mulch them adequately (3-4" of mulch all the way around the drip line, leaving a 6" gap around the trunk) and they are planted on adequately drained soil, they should be ok even during a dry spell. Check the soil moisture underneath the mulch - if the soil is very dry and crumbly, water as recommended above. If the soil feels damp in any way, you don't need to water.
We've had a fairly dry Summer here in WNY since July (we had a whopping 9" of rain in June!!), but always seem to get the heavy rains here when we need them. I'd say 10 hot/dry consecutive days = time to check soil moisture around any young trees. I water some of my more demanding deciduous trees (such as my River Birch) every day of the week during a dry spell, as Birches are capable of utilizing hundreds of gallons of water from the soil each day. None of my trees are "mature", they are all young so I do regularly check soil moisture during extended dry periods (no rain for at least 7-10 days).
We've had a fairly dry Summer here in WNY since July (we had a whopping 9" of rain in June!!), but always seem to get the heavy rains here when we need them. I'd say 10 hot/dry consecutive days = time to check soil moisture around any young trees. I water some of my more demanding deciduous trees (such as my River Birch) every day of the week during a dry spell, as Birches are capable of utilizing hundreds of gallons of water from the soil each day. None of my trees are "mature", they are all young so I do regularly check soil moisture during extended dry periods (no rain for at least 7-10 days).
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
this old retread thread prob is a distant memory of the OP but I have to disagree with the last post. Any drought we have had in my vicinity, and we have had some doozys are all auspiciously marked by dead spruce. Spruce to me are a drought indicator and the first (and even the last in later years) to show the results of impactful droughts. You rarely know you are in a drought tree killing situation until later.
ChrisWNY
ArboristSite Operative
OH, definitely not a DROUGHT, I meant a "dry spell", which is a week or so without rain. Droughts typically occur over months, not within a few weeks or a 10-day dry spell. I'll rephrase - Spruces don't absolutely need water in a NON-DROUGHT situation. In a drought, EVERYTHING needs water, especially young trees (that goes for pines and spruces alike). Water daily if anything, or buy one of those gator watering buckets. I answered based on the knowledge that the originator of the thread lives in Ohio (which normally receives adequate rainfall) and had stated that up until recently he was receiving plentiful rains. Obviously a soil moisture test is the best way to determine watering need, just pull back the mulch and stick your finger or a screw driver in the soil. If it comes out moist/wet with some mud on it, your soil is adequately moist. If your finger remains dry and the soil crumbles easily (or the screwdriver is REALLY hard to get into the ground), water, water, and water.
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
I am from Ohio and, again, wrong assumption. Also often along with drought situations come restrictions of water usage soooooo....spruce not always a good choice if watering augmentation is not feasible or legal.
ChrisWNY
ArboristSite Operative
Most of what I have read regarding Spruces points to disease (i.e. fungal infections) being the leading cause of Spruce decline, over-watering is a cause. The local horticulturalist at my extension office stopped by my property last year to check on some trees and stated basically what I have repeated here, don't water unless the soil feels real dry under the mulch. I always spray my Spruces in the morning with a fairly high pressure spray to take out any spider mites that might be living in there, seems to work well. Our soil is heavy clay, which means soil surrounding the trees becomes a bath tub during times of rain, and also from too much watering. I suppose in a really well-draining soil, weekly watering is the way to go.
http://www.treeluggers.com/blue_spruce_tree_care
Does anyone know if it's normal for Spruces (specifically blue spruce) to go through 2 bud breaks in a season? I have a batch of blue spruces that grew vigorously this Spring, and the buds that have appeared since then all appear to be swelling and ready to break again.
http://www.treeluggers.com/blue_spruce_tree_care
Does anyone know if it's normal for Spruces (specifically blue spruce) to go through 2 bud breaks in a season? I have a batch of blue spruces that grew vigorously this Spring, and the buds that have appeared since then all appear to be swelling and ready to break again.
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treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
What you are giving here Chris is book information and "expert" information. What I am giving is expert(41 years in business and 20 years a CA) witness information. I LIVE in Ohio and we get heavy rains in spring followed by very hot and dry periods during the summer where the amounts of spring rains are of no help. When we enter into drought (week or more of high temps with no rain....which we are approaching now) then these trees, spruce, are the first to die and they die in droves over the following years.
ChrisWNY
ArboristSite Operative
treevet - I'm not doubting your expertise or your countless years of experience with trees, it's just the first time I've heard that sort of watering advice from anyone regarding Spruces. My questioning is really to get more info as I have a LOT of spruces planted around my yard (none are more than 3-4 years old), and need to make sure I'm maintaining them properly. We have similar weather here in WNY - heavy rains and melting snow in the Spring followed by hot (and often humid) Summer weather in July and August, with many dry spells July-September (though we haven't had drought in many years).
FWIW, the CPC (Climate Prediction Center) has most of Ohio (as well as my area) in an above-normal precip. situation in both their 6-10 and 8-14 day outlooks. They are usually spot-on with long-term temperature and precip. outlooks:
http://www.cpc.noaa.gov/
Here is the US Drought monitor map, as you'll notice no areas near Ohio are in a designated drought...
http://www.drought.unl.edu/dm/monitor.html
FWIW, the CPC (Climate Prediction Center) has most of Ohio (as well as my area) in an above-normal precip. situation in both their 6-10 and 8-14 day outlooks. They are usually spot-on with long-term temperature and precip. outlooks:
http://www.cpc.noaa.gov/
Here is the US Drought monitor map, as you'll notice no areas near Ohio are in a designated drought...
http://www.drought.unl.edu/dm/monitor.html
That may be because you are not talking to folks in Ohio.
TV's comments on watering sound fine to me.
In the KC area, I advise customers to never plant a spruce. While there are a few fine specimens in town, the vast majority die in the middle of the first summers heat. I would guess that less than 25% of the spruce trees survive, unless they are planted in irrigated areas. The "Bruce R Watkins" freeway was planted 4-5 years ago with hundreds of spruces, at a huge taxpayer expense. Every single one of them is dead. It's a lovely landscape.
You seem to be evaluating only rainfall & irrigation provided. HEAT alone can stress the spruces, especially if they are not planted in soil appropriate for their species. Go down to Louisiana and see how many white (or norway) spruce can be found down there!
Watering for "45-60 second" is terribly vague. Put a five gallon bucket under the hose, and time how long it takes to fill. Then calculate your flow rate. Then begin sticking your finger into the ground a few inches, about 18" away from the trunk of your tree before you water the tree. If you can't feel any moisture, you need to apply more water, and probably more frequently. Given that you have clay soil, I would recommend "more frequent" watering before I would escalate to "more water" per irrigation.
Note: white spruce prefer well drained soil. The originator of this thread stated that they were planted in "mostly clay". Hot & dry conditions, in conjunction with planting the trees in a clay hole with no drainage, and enduring irregular & unmeasured watering conditions is a formula for tree failure.
I would like to suggest that if the needles are falling off the upper branches when touched, and the lower branches appear to be dried up, that the tree is likely dead already. It takes a while for a spruce to look dead, even though it done for. Just look at how long it takes your christmas tree to turn brown, even though it was cut off at the base 6 weeks earlier.
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A post-script
You can read charts until you are blue in the face. Virtually all of NY is north of Ohio. The weather in Ohio is simply warmer than in New York.
Watering requirements for heat sensitive plants will be higher. Arguing about it is pointless, particularly with someone with treevet's experience and knowledge.
You can read charts until you are blue in the face. Virtually all of NY is north of Ohio. The weather in Ohio is simply warmer than in New York.
Watering requirements for heat sensitive plants will be higher. Arguing about it is pointless, particularly with someone with treevet's experience and knowledge.
ChrisWNY
ArboristSite Operative
True, I don't talk to folks too often in Ohio (though I do have 30+ family members that live in Columbus, Cleveland, and Ashland). Wasn't arguing with treevet at all, though it is through arguing that we all learn. I was simply pointing out a reference article as well as expert advice from a 30+ year horticulturalist who has written an extensive library of books and articles on tree care (spruces fall well within his area of expertise). I was just surprised to hear such a differing angle on watering spruces, and treevet explained his reasoning, I just don't agree with it (again, this is not knocking his expertise, I've just heard way too much info to the contrary for many years). I have never seen a spruce just up and die in my area during drought or extended hot/dry periods, I see them die plenty though from storm/wind damage as well as instances where they are planted incorrectly (i.e. too deeply).
Looking at the climate of Columbus, Ohio, it's not much different than that of Buffalo and the rest of WNY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Columbus,_Ohio ). Columbus is nearly on-par with Buffalo regarding average monthly precip., and very close in average temperature. If it weren't for Lake Erie's moderating effect on our temperatures, we'd be a lot hotter during the Summer. I'm also in zone 6, just like all of Ohio.
The arborday tree guide notes that white spruce (http://www.arborday.org/treeguide/TreeList.cfm?SearchText=white+spruce&submit=Find+Trees ) is hardy to zones 2-6, so once you're south of Ohio, you're pushing your luck. I also agree with your statement that once a Spruce starts to decline, it's usually toast. I lost 4 real nice ones many years ago because they were planted at about grade in an area of my yard that didn't drain very well, I was not aware of the "spruces don't like wet feet" rule at the time and lost four really nice 6' blue spruce trees as a result. Now I have nearly 30 Spruce trees planted around the edges of my 2-acre lot as a wind break, mostly on berms, though some are planted on mounds. The important thing is that I keep them above grade in my heavy clay soil, and they are all thriving. Nearly all my spruces have more than doubled in size the past 2 years.
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I suggest that you ask the original post what part of Ohio they are in, drive down to that area and look around.
See if you find any large stands of spruce swarming the hillsides. If you don't find any, you should presume that they require special care.
If you can't find any mature spruce in that area at all, it's a good sign that there will be problems with any transplants.
Arguing from a textual basis about how things are in some part of the world in the absence of cold, hard experience is usually pointless. You would agree with me if I was arguing with you about how well spruces do (or don't do) up in New York, wouldn't you?
See if you find any large stands of spruce swarming the hillsides. If you don't find any, you should presume that they require special care.
If you can't find any mature spruce in that area at all, it's a good sign that there will be problems with any transplants.
Arguing from a textual basis about how things are in some part of the world in the absence of cold, hard experience is usually pointless. You would agree with me if I was arguing with you about how well spruces do (or don't do) up in New York, wouldn't you?
Doesn't that say everything? How can you argue that the climate is different in the same breath that you are saying they are the same?
ChrisWNY
ArboristSite Operative
I'm not aware of Spruces native to WNY or Ohio (if any), so of course they probably need extra care so that they can adapt properly. Around here I only see Spruces in yards, planted as specimen trees or windbreaks, and not in forests (we do have a lot of various pines though), and remember seeing much of the same in suburban Ohio neighborhoods around Cleveland and Columbus. Either way, my disagreement to treevet's response was both a combination of what I had been told by horticulturalists, but also from past experience, observing what happens to Spruce trees when they're in "wet" conditions, aka over-watered (they decline rapidly, turning a nice golden brown color then shedding all their needles). Arborists and horticulturalists alike however do seem to have differing opinions of how to properly water trees (search Google, there are a TON of differences of opinion from one "expert" site to the next), regardless of where they're from, but I've found the "check your soil moisture first" advice to be the best, and that was what I stated in an earlier post. If the soil is already moist underneath the mulch surrounding a tree (whether Spruce, Maple, etc.), is it really a good idea to bust out the hose and soak it with another 10-25 gallons of water? Won't that lead to over-watering issues? Am I wrong in using common sense here?
Regarding climate similarities to WNY, portions of Ohio must get a decent Lake breeze from winds out of the N/NW/NE from time to time? NE Ohio definitely experiences a similar Lake breeze scenario as WNY. Once you're 20-25 miles inland from Lake Erie, it's moderating effects are drastically reduced. I live a good deal to the NE of Buffalo, most of the winds in my area (anything out of the W/WSW) cross the Niagara Peninsula and not the Lake. Lake Erie also keeps Buffalo's temps warmer during the early Winter, until it ices over of course. Either way, it's not a big stretch of the imagination to consider that our climates are quite similar, after all, a lot of your native trees are also native to WNY. I've driven into Ohio dozens of times, I was born/raised in the Southern Tier of WNY which is only a couple hours from Cleveland, so I drove there many times to visit family in the area. One noticeable difference (that was quite obvious) -- there are a lot more open fields in Ohio, whereas WNY (most of NY for that matter) has a lot of forest coverage. Ohio is very flat by comparison to NY (that goes for PA also, which is hilly like NY), different topography without question.
Considering you're a certified arborist, yes, I would consider you an expert on anything tree related (same goes for treevet), doesn't mean I can't question or fact-check your statements. Arborists aren't climatologists or meteorologists anyway, I do have a Meteorology degree from Penn State (not my profession though), so I know a bit about the subject.
I would think any Ohio Arborist would do great in NY, and vice-versa. You're making it sound like Ohio/NY is like comparing Alaska to Florida; I mean, come on, we're only a few hundred miles apart, and certainly have very similar weather patterns throughout the year, though we probably get more snow than you do.
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treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
Chris, I am not inclined to match you in the words per minute category as at this time of year my energy level is low from "lack of watering" myself working all day in 100 degree temps.
But the fact, and we should be most interested in fact, remains that we had 2 years of drought 2 years ago, then we had a recorded drought about 13 years prior to that and a third one 5 or so years prior to that.
Again, in each of those recorded droughts thousands (thousands) of spruce trees, mostly norway and colorado blue, died those years and the year or 2 following that (more than any other tree). What you are getting from an "expert" or a text cannot contradict this. I find and have found textbooks and "experts" to be in error a myriad of times over my 4 decades old career and being a devoted student of Alex Shigo......assumptions based on conjecture and not fact are worthless.
I would offer another consideration involving spruce.....often they are planted in a space that soon expands with increasing lateral growth in turn swallowing up property as a spruce appears rather silly looking with the bottom limbs removed like done with deciduous trees. Kind of like a Christmas tree on a popcycle stick. Consider if you can stand diminishing space prior to planting these trees (esp driveways, walkways and such) in exchange for perceived benefits expected.
But the fact, and we should be most interested in fact, remains that we had 2 years of drought 2 years ago, then we had a recorded drought about 13 years prior to that and a third one 5 or so years prior to that.
Again, in each of those recorded droughts thousands (thousands) of spruce trees, mostly norway and colorado blue, died those years and the year or 2 following that (more than any other tree). What you are getting from an "expert" or a text cannot contradict this. I find and have found textbooks and "experts" to be in error a myriad of times over my 4 decades old career and being a devoted student of Alex Shigo......assumptions based on conjecture and not fact are worthless.
I would offer another consideration involving spruce.....often they are planted in a space that soon expands with increasing lateral growth in turn swallowing up property as a spruce appears rather silly looking with the bottom limbs removed like done with deciduous trees. Kind of like a Christmas tree on a popcycle stick. Consider if you can stand diminishing space prior to planting these trees (esp driveways, walkways and such) in exchange for perceived benefits expected.
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